What’s the motivation?

Jamie Clubb wrote:

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Sorry, what stance exactly?

Pretty much the one you are striking now.

Oh OK. I know that Matt Thornton would have probably a similar enough view, as would John Kavanagh. After that I wouldn't have any idea.

I don't completely disagree with it. The "cult of RBSD" is a concern. However, my chief concern with the aformentioned stance is that we end up buying into the "by-product myth" and end up doing what White Suit Inc. and the mystics do. As such MMA becomes an absolute in itself.

I'm not quite sure I follow you.

On the subject of Limerick... I've a few mates who studied there. They would not agree with your view point. The scummers used to hunt and kick the shit out of the "art students". I had a mate who was bottled because he had long hair, and a leather jacket. Of course they go for the easy targets.

On the "SP training" about food, and accident prevention, etc. And people being honest with themselves - I'd agree with you here.

But who's perfect? Everyone has something they could do better in their lives.

As for people getting beaten up after a few jars, and could they have avoided it? Perhaps... But do we live our live tip toeing around the scumbags? Do we let terrorism force us into not living in the way we want?

In all fairness to Tim - I know why he's Skeptical (besides his MMA background). In fact we've had a few arguments in the past. But it was all in good fun.

In Ireland we are, in my opinion, at least 10 years behind the UK in terms of "self-protection". I'm not saying that there are not some good guys over there now, but it's only relatively recently that the movement is starting to gain momentum, and were starting to see some real talent coming across the water. Guys Like, Lee, Jamie, Tony Robbins, etc. (and hopefully many more!).

The boards that myself and Tim often post on, is consumed with bad, and outdated "self-defense" material. Or B.S. weekend courses that make some outrageous claims - which is only backed up by highly compliant training and bad you tube clips. Simply put on to make the good old "wallet extraction".

So naturally the MMA types, who train in full contact, sneer at these bad clips and instructors. Unfortunately they lump everything into the same bag... without knowing anything about the good material. Which is the part that I don't agree with and think is unfair.

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I'm not quite sure I follow you.

That's the idea isn't it? No followers What don't you understand?

Rob,

when you mentioned Tony Robbins,

you weren't referring to banana hands master nlp, motivational speaker, tony robbins were you?

Den.

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On the subject of Limerick... I've a few mates who studied there. They would not agree with your view point. The scummers used to hunt and kick the shit out of the "art students". I had a mate who was bottled because he had long hair, and a leather jacket. Of course they go for the easy targets.

I actually taught TKD in the arts college for a bit. I’m not saying that Limerick wasn’t without it’s share of scumbags.

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As for people getting beaten up after a few jars, and could they have avoided it? Perhaps... But do we live our live tip toeing around the scumbags?

Not at all. I was saying that a lot of fights in pubs are both people’s fault to a greater or lesser degree. There are exceptions no doubt. I’ve talked to my mate I mentioned above afterwards about why he was fighting and it was always the other guys fault, he didn’t know why it started etc etc. Yet at the same time it used to always end up happening to him and never to me. And I didn’t spend my nights out tip toeing!

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So naturally the MMA types, who train in full contact, sneer at these bad clips and instructors. Unfortunately they lump everything into the same bag... without knowing anything about the good material. Which is the part that I don't agree with and think is unfair.

Sure, it is unfair. The problem is people can only keep up a healthy scepticism for so long before becoming cynical. I used to post on a TKD forum a lot a few years ago and every now and again I’d come across somebody who’d insist that what he was doing was different to what I was criticising and blah blah blah. More often than not if they ever posted a video then it turned out that they were doing more or less the same crap, just dressed up a bit different.

Jamie Clubb wrote:

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I'm not quite sure I follow you.

That's the idea isn't it? No followers What don't you understand?

What you mean by:

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we end up buying into the "by-product myth" and end up doing what White Suit Inc. and the mystics do. As such MMA becomes an absolute in itself.

British Sceptic wrote:

when you mentioned Tony Robbins,

you weren't referring to banana hands master nlp, motivational speaker, tony robbins were you?

Den.

JESUS!!! where did I get that name from??????

SO sorry.... I meant Anthony Sommers.... Geoff's mate and instructor. Not that other idiot!

Can't believe I said that. As well as being dislexic - I'm totally absent minded. Prolly BSE.....

Lmfao

Thats only a small mistake Rob, lol
Tony is an ace guy and a fantastic self defence instructor also.
I know he has been doing more and more work over in ireland with aiden carrol etc.

Reminds me, I must give tony a call,
thanks for the reminder lol.

Tim,

It will be in my book ;-) Suffice to say how long before the actual specific self-defence courses disappear from the MMA classes (STAB programme for example) that still advertise self defence? How long before those who still argue that they do teach self defence come back with the old McDojo chestnut "we teach confidence and that's what self-defence is all about"?

Rob,

When I taught my seminar in Ireland I was actually very impressed with the attitude taken by the students. Unlike most seminars I didn't have to spend ages going on about pre-emptive striking or what the fence was or worry about people being scared to spar. You have a fantastic lead in with Aidan Caroll. He has exactly the right idea.

Hey Jamie,

Yeah, Aiden's lads will be pretty clued up, as he's been training with a few of the big names (including Lee).

Unfortunately, the average groups aren't so aware of the whole self-protection gamut, and all that it entails.

R.

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Suffice to say how long before the actual specific self-defence courses disappear from the MMA classes (STAB programme for example) that still advertise self defence?

In fairness, i can't think of any mma club I've trained in that advertised what they were doing as self defence. If somebody asked me about the places I train so I would say it is self defence relevent, which it is because people learn how to fight, but the training itself is not aimed at self defence. A guy being fitter, tougher and having some fighting ability are all things that might help him on the dreaded street, but at the end of the day its not what the training is about. There are much healthier reasons to train as most people discover than fear or because he were bullied as a kid.

Tim,

could you elaborate on the health reasons please?

Regards,

den.

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In fairness, i can't think of any mma club I've trained in that advertised what they were doing as self defence. If somebody asked me about the places I train so I would say it is self defence relevent, which it is because people learn how to fight, but the training itself is not aimed at self defence. A guy being fitter, tougher and having some fighting ability are all things that might help him on the dreaded street, but at the end of the day its not what the training is about. There are much healthier reasons to train as most people discover than fear or because he were bullied as a kid.

In an online survey NEST, one of the UK's biggest martial arts billing companies, the biggest percentage of students said that the reason why they fist decided to train martial arts was for self-defence. With this in mind, many martial arts clubs are doing their customers a deservice by shifting the objective. Granted if they don't advertise self-defence on their agenda and they tell their students that what they teach isn't self-defence orientated from the beginning that is fine. However, I don't buy into this "by-product" myth. You can be fit and healthy from rugby and let's face facts rugby probably teaches more first line self-defence hard skills than even MMA. It teaches escape and resistance again multiple attackers.

A question for you Tim? Is there much debate among SBG members. I'd be interested to read how their views differ. After all, I would certainly consider SBG to be martial arts sceptics of a type.

Jamie Clubb wrote:

Is there much debate among SBG members. I'd be interested to read how their views differ. After all, I would certainly consider SBG to be martial arts sceptics of a type.

In my opinion, SBG are pseudo skeptics.... this is because they tend look at only one "part of the picture", and simply dismiss the rest. Again, I'm not saying that they are all like this - but the guys that I have encountered on "Boards.ie" are very blinkered. And criticize and dismiss other training methodologies without knowing all the facts.

I often think that they feel that they are the only ones who practice against a "non-compliant" partners. However, the self-protection movement/Combatives have been doing this well before MMA was even in the public eye. And god knows how many years before that....

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In an online survey NEST, one of the UK's biggest martial arts billing companies, the biggest percentage of students said that the reason why they fist decided to train martial arts was for self-defence. With this in mind, many martial arts clubs are doing their customers a deservice by shifting the objective.

If a person starts training something for self defence but then continues to train for other reasons, how is this a disservice? I’m nearly sure I’ve never even talked to somebody who’s main motivation for continuing to train long term was SD. Even you guys, for all the talk about SD, its obvious it is not the main reason you train.

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However, I don't buy into this "by-product" myth.

What the “myth” that learning to fight might help you if you ever need to fight? I have used my skills in real encounters working security. I have never one any training but a few to working in security and have never done any security training of any kind. Yet all the ‘sport’ stuff came to my rescue and I had no problem at all transferring these skills to a non-sport environment.

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A question for you Tim? Is there much debate among SBG members. I'd be interested to read how their views differ. After all, I would certainly consider SBG to be martial arts sceptics of a type.

Much debate about self defence training I presume? I have no idea to be honest, I don’t train in a SBG gym, although I have trained with John Kavanagh a good few times, and I have spent some time training in Karl’s place. From from my limited experience in these places guys are more interested in just getting good at work they are doing, be that BJJ, boxing, wrestling etc. I would doubt that most of the people training in these gyms care one way or the other all that much about “self defence”, but that is just my opinion. But we are talking about large full time gyms, I'm sure there's probably plenty of different opinions on the matter.

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In my opinion, SBG are pseudo skeptics.... this is because they tend look at only one "part of the picture", and simply dismiss the rest. Again, I'm not saying that they are all like this - but the guys that I have encountered on "Boards.ie" are very blinkered.

Taking the opinions of a few posters and applying it to a large group of people is not the most logical thing to do.

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I often think that they feel that they are the only ones who practice against a "non-compliant" partners.

Some guys come across like that alright.

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However, the self-protection movement/Combatives have been doing this well before MMA was even in the public eye.

Indeed, a lot of people were, SBG included. There’s actually a fair bit of material of Matt’s early stuff about, MMA before the term existed.

British Sceptic wrote:

Tim,

could you elaborate on the health reasons please?

Regards,

den.

A heatlhy reason to train might mean to want to get a bit fitter, or meet new people or just be doing something you enjoy doing in the evening. As opposed to unhealthy reasons, like being paranoid, being worried about getting attacked with a knife when the chances of that ever happening are tiny, or just going training because you'll get to spar and you want to hurt somebody.

In general I think people often don't give that much time to think about why they do what they do, what are the real reasons why they go training at all, hence this thread.

Thanks for the clarification Tim,

I am inclined to agree with you on those points,

Den.

Hi Tim,

I am just addressing your answers to my post. Although I share some similar views to Rob, I don't want our posts to get mixed up.

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If a person starts training something for self defence but then continues to train for other reasons, how is this a disservice? I’m nearly sure I’ve never even talked to somebody who’s main motivation for continuing to train long term was SD. Even you guys, for all the talk about SD, its obvious it is not the main reason you train.

Agreed, but if someone joins for self-defence, if their priority is self-defence, then surely this the first thing they should learn. If it is not, then that is another matter. I do train for reasons outside self-defence, but I also review self-defence on a regular basis.

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Much debate about self defence training I presume? I have no idea to be honest, I don’t train in a SBG gym, although I have trained with John Kavanagh a good few times, and I have spent some time training in Karl’s place. From from my limited experience in these places guys are more interested in just getting good at work they are doing, be that BJJ, boxing, wrestling etc. I would doubt that most of the people training in these gyms care one way or the other all that much about “self defence”, but that is just my opinion. But we are talking about large full time gyms, I'm sure there's probably plenty of different opinions on the matter.

To be honest, Tim, that was me going a tad off-topic. SBG's methods appear to encourage research, individuality, honesty and scepticism. However, I haven't read much in the way of diversity. Even slang like the term "goofy" is repeated by members to describe the weird world of martial arts. If you look at sports associations, scientists, historians etc. the world that I and the SBG like draw association with, you will see a tremendous amount of diversity and debate. My BJJ coach, Braulio Estima, invites debate in our classes and both he and one of his brown belts recently had a polite open debate regarding a certain type sweep.

Please excuse the anecdotal bit here, but just the other day I heard from an instructor who recently attended a Matt Thornton seminar and was shocked by their recent shift away from other "alive" arts like Muay Thai and other full contact strike-based arts. He said it appeared that the crux of the argument was that BJJ was the best system to practice due to the fact that you could train full on with minimum risks (not taken into account the fatal damage prolonged chokes can do to the carotid artieries). Were you aware of this change in direction?

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What the “myth” that learning to fight might help you if you ever need to fight? I have used my skills in real encounters working security. I have never one any training but a few to working in security and have never done any security training of any kind. Yet all the ‘sport’ stuff came to my rescue and I had no problem at all transferring these skills to a non-sport environment.

I am not anti-sport. MMA is a superb form of "attribute training" that I and my students regulalry engage in. However, if that is the sole basis of your training you are only really training for one type of fight: the match fight, then you are only training in one dimension. It's a bit like training only one range for MMA. It might get a fighter through a few fights, but is it really realistic not to explore the other equally vital ranges? Forget the fact that the dynamic of fighting one than one person is very different from a one-on-one confrontation, the main difference between a "match fight" and any other type assault is that both protagonists are consenting fighters. The conditioning of match fighting is great for toughening you up if a fight is not over in a short length of time. That is of bugger all use if you fall for the old "got the time mate?" WALLOP! A tactic I hasten to add has felled a few pro boxers by far "lesser" fighters.

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Even slang like the term "goofy" is repeated by members to describe the weird world of martial arts

In fairness, goofy would be an accurate enough term for a lot of the stuff that’s out there.

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If you look at sports associations, scientists, historians etc. the world that I and the SBG like draw association with, you will see a tremendous amount of diversity and debate.

Agreed, but again lets me remember (to use your analogy) that the genuine debates is like discussions between Dawkins and Gould, not between scientists and creationists.

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My BJJ coach, Braulio Estima, invites debate in our classes and both he and one of his brown belts recently had a polite open debate regarding a certain type sweep.

Cool, I debate these type of things with people all the time. It’s one of the advantages of not training in a club with peers as opposed to some black belt who is streets ahead of everybody. People tend to question more, and think more for themselves.

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Please excuse the anecdotal bit here, but just the other day I heard from an instructor who recently attended a Matt Thornton seminar and was shocked by their recent shift away from other "alive" arts like Muay Thai and other full contact strike-based arts. He said it appeared that the crux of the argument was that BJJ was the best system to practice due to the fact that you could train full on with minimum risks (not taken into account the fatal damage prolonged chokes can do to the carotid artieries). Were you aware of this change in direction?

Different SBG coaches I’ve come across have had a different emphasis. John Kavanagh’s gym in Dublin, whilst it is an MMA gym, has always been mainly BJJ based. I think John’s main passion is BJJ and that is reflected in the gym. On the other hand when I was over in Karl’s a few weeks ago, I trained BJJ, sub wrestling, boxing, muay thai, wrestling and MMA! That’s a pretty broad range by any definition. Most of Matt’s seminars I’ve been to have been mainly bjj based, but not exclusively so.
With regards to risks, in terms of ‘alive’ arts, BJJ is probably the lowest impact on your body, provided you are training smart of course. I’m training for a mma fight at the moment (3 weeks out at this stage!) and there’s no doubt it is tough on the body.

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I am not anti-sport. MMA is a superb form of "attribute training" that I and my students regulalry engage in.

Define attribute training. I usually use the term attribute to mean physical attributes, strength, speed etc.

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However, if that is the sole basis of your training you are only really training for one type of fight: the match fight, then you are only training in one dimension.

Not disagreeing with this at all. If I was worried about getting attacked by a gang of people I would train against multiple opponents, but I’m not so I don’t.

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It's a bit like training only one range for MMA. It might get a fighter through a few fights, but is it really realistic not to explore the other equally vital ranges?

Sure, if somebody is worried about self defence. If not I wouldn’t really bother. Although I suppose a bit of two on one can be a bit of fun an odd time, but its not really a fair match, and the guy on his own tends to lose quite a bit.

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In fairness, goofy would be an accurate enough term for a lot of the stuff that’s out there.

Agreed, but that wasn't the point. Symantics are a key feature of cults of personality and a point Matt Thornton has expressed with the way "traditional" martial arts schools often require their students to use the same language terminology being used in their martial art's country of origin. Slang is another way groups bond people and it works in a similar way. In fact, it might be more damaging as at least "official" language does normally invade private life, slang can and does. Just to put you in the picture this is me

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Agreed, but again lets me remember (to use your analogy) that the genuine debates is like discussions between Dawkins and Gould, not between scientists and creationists.

This is what I was getting at. I haven't seen it in SBG circles yet.

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Cool, I debate these type of things with people all the time. It’s one of the advantages of not training in a club with peers as opposed to some black belt who is streets ahead of everybody. People tend to question more, and think more for themselves.

People should be encouraged to question. CCMA, which makes self-defence its foundation before moving onto MMA and cross-training, is founded on this type of attitude. In fact, a key area we express is to "find the flaw". Because we are more concerned with pressure-test activities I am always keen to put students in the coaching position and to keep a critical mind. No one is about criticism, no matter how experienced and no matter how good. A mantra of mine is "no one can tell what YOU will do in a real life situation".

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With regards to risks, in terms of ‘alive’ arts, BJJ is probably the lowest impact on your body, provided you are training smart of course. I’m training for a mma fight at the moment (3 weeks out at this stage!) and there’s no doubt it is tough on the body.

To a certain degree I can agree with you, but not to the virtual total dismissal or phasing out of striking arts, which is what my source implied. Strangely enough I received more (percentage-wise) impact injuries in BJJ than I ever did in my Kickboxing and Muay Thai - and both of these included "fight clubs". Maybe I don't train so smart Anyway that's beside the point and nitpicking. Many knowledgeable old grappling veterans will not let anyone near their neck for the express reason I outlined. This risks caused by prolonged exposure to strangulation techniques has been known in Judo circles for a long time. There are really two sure ways to stop a man in unarmed fighting - heavy concussive blow to the head and strangulation/choking. Of the two the latter is more likely to cause instant death. The former only usually causes death if the felled person's body strikes something hard when they fall i.e. head on pavement, which is unlikely to happen on a mat or in the ring.

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Not disagreeing with this at all. If I was worried about getting attacked by a gang of people I would train against multiple opponents, but I’m not so I don’t.

But today's civilian is far more likely to be attacked by more than one person, even if it starts out "one-on-one".

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Sure, if somebody is worried about self defence. If not I wouldn’t really bother. Although I suppose a bit of two on one can be a bit of fun an odd time, but its not really a fair match, and the guy on his own tends to lose quite a bit.

Who said anything about a "fairness", "losing" or it being a "match". Why martial artists often "lose" in this type of drill is because they try to spar with the people attacking them rather than escape. Escape is the priority for a normal civilian in a self-defence situation. I appreciate that this changes if you are employed in security or in law enforcement, but not that much if your life is completley on the line. Being drawn into a fight is perhaps the biggest flaw with combat sports training being applied to self-defence without alteration. The mentality is totally different.

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Agreed, but that wasn't the point. Symantics are a key feature of cults of personality and a point Matt Thornton has expressed with the way "traditional" martial arts schools often require their students to use the same language terminology being used in their martial art's country of origin. Slang is another way groups bond people and it works in a similar way. In fact, it might be more damaging as at least "official" language does normally invade private life, slang can and does. Just to put you in the picture this is me

OK, I see what you are getting at now. I’d agree.

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To a certain degree I can agree with you, but not to the virtual total dismissal or phasing out of striking arts, which is what my source implied.

I’d be pretty sure your source is mistaken. Not everyone wants to get hit the head every night. Many people who go to mma gyms just want to grapple, there’s nothing at all wrong with that. I’d imagine years down the line when I’m sick of getting hit I’ll be doing that.

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Strangely enough I received more (percentage-wise) impact injuries in BJJ than I ever did in my Kickboxing and Muay Thai - and both of these included "fight clubs". Maybe I don't train so smart

Maybe. Or maybe the sparring was always very competitive? Maybe a lot of the guys training were relying on a lot of strength and power? I mean if you have guys neck cranking you every night yes you are going to get hurt grappling.

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Anyway that's beside the point and nitpicking. Many knowledgeable old grappling veterans will not let anyone near their neck for the express reason I outlined. This risks caused by prolonged exposure to strangulation techniques has been known in Judo circles for a long time. There are really two sure ways to stop a man in unarmed fighting - heavy concussive blow to the head and strangulation/choking.

True, but again if people are training smart they shouldn’t be choking each other hard in training. You can stop a choke or arm bar etc without really finishing it, as long as people are training smart, just tapping when they get caught as opposed to waiting until it hurts or when they are about to pass out.

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But today's civilian is far more likely to be attacked by more than one person, even if it starts out "one-on-one".

That might well be the case (I have no idea) but getting attacked on the street is not something that worries me, so I don’t bother training for it, much like the 99.99999% of the population.

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Why martial artists often "lose" in this type of drill is because they try to spar with the people attacking them rather than escape. Escape is the priority for a normal civilian in a self-defence situation. I appreciate that this changes if you are employed in security or in law enforcement, but not that much if your life is completley on the line. Being drawn into a fight is perhaps the biggest flaw with combat sports training being applied to self-defence without alteration.

Who said anything about applying combat sport training to SD ‘without alteration’? By losing I meant not being able to escape and getting beat on my a few guys.

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Maybe. Or maybe the sparring was always very competitive? Maybe a lot of the guys training were relying on a lot of strength and power? I mean if you have guys neck cranking you every night yes you are going to get hurt grappling.

I think you will find that the BJJ club I train at is perhaps one of the most reputable in the UK. It sometimes gets competitive and sometimes not, depending on who you are rolling with. I think there is a lot more hidden impact in BJJ than people realize and you get more contact around the face than you do in strike-based training simply because you are not guarding as such.

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I’d be pretty sure your source is mistaken. Not everyone wants to get hit the head every night. Many people who go to mma gyms just want to grapple, there’s nothing at all wrong with that. I’d imagine years down the line when I’m sick of getting hit I’ll be doing that.

I hope my source is mistaken as SBG has a lot good things to offer the martial arts world and I have learnt a fair deal from their approach. You have my sympathies a lot people go down the grappling only route as they get older. Nevertheless I would never neglect practicing my bag and, more importantly, pad work (another area I believe Matt disapproves of, could that be an example of something the rest of SBG doesn't endorse?)

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True, but again if people are training smart they shouldn’t be choking each other hard in training. You can stop a choke or arm bar etc without really finishing it, as long as people are training smart, just tapping when they get caught as opposed to waiting until it hurts or when they are about to pass out.

Unfortunately to train like this all the time in sparring gets us close to the old semi-contact point sparring mentality. It teaches a "you got me" mentality, which isn't great either for competition or self-defence. Even when you are compliantly going through the technique you need to know that it is on. It has to be confirmed and confirmed fairly regularly or you get sloppy technique. The amount of times I have seen white belts (and been there myself) where they have the "shape" but lose the submission because they can't get the vital % in there.

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That might well be the case (I have no idea) but getting attacked on the street is not something that worries me, so I don’t bother training for it, much like the 99.99999% of the population.

Yes, but out of that population of people who don't train realistic self-defence, how many are the predators, how many are the doorstaff, how many are the streetfighters, how many work in security etc? What I am saying is a fair number (although I consent not the majority) don't train self-defence because they already practice it on a regular basis learnt through the circumstances they are placed. The others... some are victims of all descriptions, others (a good number I agree) are fortunate. There are also a good number of fortunate people who will never need to use swimming to survive (more so than those who will not need some sort of self-defence training) and never need a good 80%+ of the First Aid training they get. And around we come to my First Aid comparison. A good percentage of the population do First Aid courses and come out insufficiently trained hence new concerns that have stripped a lot of the critera taught yet added new areas like defibrilation. Interestingly I was discussing this matter with Dennis Jone (of "Samurai on the Door" fame) yesterday and he said that First Aid once was taught in many schools on a weekly basis.