Undercover Sceptic

Hi and a very warm welcome to The Undercover Sceptic Forum, I created this forum for like minded people to come and share their thoughts on sceptical subjects so please donate your wisdom freely for the furtherance of rational thought, Thankyou.
 
HomeCalendarFAQSearchUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Chi Master

Go down 
AuthorMessage
Craig
Jnr Member


Male Number of posts : 34
Age : 42
Registration date : 2008-06-19

PostSubject: Chi Master   Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:39 pm

ok guys

I know where I stand on this one
so lets hear your thoughts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM_E6sRQQAg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6UTGkC73GE&feature=related

Craig
bounce
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://selfdefence.darkbb.com/index.htm
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:56 pm


_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Craig
Jnr Member


Male Number of posts : 34
Age : 42
Registration date : 2008-06-19

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:20 pm

Interesting links den. seen them all before

HOWEVER....

The second vid I posted with the healer heating the temperature of his hands up. can actually be done. I have done it myself, just not as hot as that.

I have been able also to project the energy around me towards someone else stood next to me to the point where they feel faint and start tingling. it has been done many times.

just because something looks out of the ordinary does not mean its not possible.
agreed, these vids are extreme cases and most of it more than likely mind over matter.

From what I have experienced, the second video I posted is entirely possible judging by what I have been able to do myself

Craig
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://selfdefence.darkbb.com/index.htm
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:40 pm

Thats whats known as Anecdotal Evidence

and is not used in scientific investigation im afraid to say Neutral

regards,

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
sparky1892
Jnr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 8
Age : 37
Job/hobbies : Tai Chi, Chi Kung, Meditation (open to suggestions)
Humor : Have a canny good sense of humor
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:46 pm

I agree with Craig on this. I am nowhere near to his level on this, but when I do my chi kung, even in the cold weather I feel some weird sensations in the palms of my hands, especially this weird sort of magnetism I feel. This feels like the palms are sort of pushing away from each other. I also have feelings of heat, and if I move my palms over certain areas the heat seems to change in intensity.

I sometimes give a friend of mine head massages, as she suffers from frequent migraine attacks. I remembered one of my chi kung teachers telling me how, that you can use your own imagination to get rid of the headache. So decided to give this a try, and weirdly enough it seemed to have some sort of sensation on her head.

She said it felt asthough her head went really light nd the pain went for a few seconds, and whilst I was doing this, I wasnt even touching her head.

Dunno if this is just a coincidence or not as I dont know enough to explain it, but who knows, maybe.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:00 pm

My friend strokes her pussy when she feels stressed or has migraine attacks, she swears its more therapeutic than any amount of visible chi Surprised

regards,

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
sparky1892
Jnr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 8
Age : 37
Job/hobbies : Tai Chi, Chi Kung, Meditation (open to suggestions)
Humor : Have a canny good sense of humor
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:13 pm

Knowing my look, I'd probs get scratched as hell.lol
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rob
Snr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 346
Age : 47
Location : Ireland.
Job/hobbies : Combatives, Skepticism, Design.
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:04 pm

If it can be faked then it probably is.

I'd have to see this miracle performed under lab conditions.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.ucireland.com
Jamie Clubb
Snr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 296
Age : 42
Job/hobbies : Coach/Writer
Humor : Groucho Marx, Tony Hancock, Bill Cosby, Billy Connolly, Paul Merton, Ricky Gervais
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:31 pm

Rob wrote:
If it can be faked then it probably is.

I'd have to see this miracle performed under lab conditions.

I agree. There is no scientific evidence whatsoever to support the idea that humans can project invisible "energy" in this manner. In fact, many of these ideas were debunked in China by the martial artist Tang Hao and the use of chi as a weapon was sadly but solidly debunked during the Boxer Rebellion a few decades before. The power of suggestion and fakir tricks do not make for conclusive evidence.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.clubbchimera.com
Jamie Clubb
Snr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 296
Age : 42
Job/hobbies : Coach/Writer
Humor : Groucho Marx, Tony Hancock, Bill Cosby, Billy Connolly, Paul Merton, Ricky Gervais
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:57 am

This arrived in my inbox from Eskeptic today regarding acupuncture:

Quote :
PUNCTURING THE ACUPUNCTURE MYTH

by Harriet Hall, M.D.


By definition, "alternative" medicine is medicine that has not been
scientifically proven and has not been accepted into mainstream
scientific medicine. The question I keep hearing is, "But what about
acupuncture? It's been proven to work, it's supported by lots of
good research, more and more doctors are using it, and insurance
companies even pay for it." It's time the acupuncture myth was
punctured -- preferably with an acupuncture needle. Almost
everything you've heard about acupuncture is wrong.

To start with, this ancient Chinese treatment is not so ancient and
may not even be Chinese! From studying the earliest documents,
Chinese scholar Paul Unschuld suspects the idea may have originated
with the Greek Hippocrates of Cos and later spread to China. It's
definitely not 3000 years old. The earliest Chinese medical texts,
from the 3rd century BC, do not mention it. The earliest reference
to "needling" is from 90 BC, but it refers to bloodletting and
lancing abscesses with large needles or lancets. There is nothing in
those documents to suggest anything like today's acupuncture. We
have the archaeological evidence of needles from that era -- they
are large; the technology for manufacturing thin steel needles
appropriate for acupuncture didn't exist until about 400 years ago.

The earliest accounts of Chinese medicine reached the West in the
13th century: they didn't mention acupuncture at all. The first
Westerner to write about acupuncture, Wilhelm Ten Rhijn, in 1680,
didn't describe acupuncture as we know it today: he didn't mention
specific points or "qi;" he spoke of large gold needles that were
implanted deep into the skull or "womb" and left in place for 30
respirations.

Acupuncture was tried off and on in Europe after that. It was first
tried in America in 1826 as a possible means of resuscitating
drowned people. They couldn't get it to work and "gave up in
disgust." I imagine sticking needles in soggy dead people was pretty
disgusting.

Through the early 20th century, no Western account of acupuncture
referred to acupuncture points: needles were simply inserted near
the point of pain. Qi was originally vapor arising from food, and
meridians were channels or vessels. A Frenchman, Georges Soulie de
Morant, was the first to use the term "meridian" and to equate qi
with energy -- in 1939. Auricular (ear) acupuncture was invented by
a Frenchman in 1957.

The Chinese government tried to ban acupuncture several times, from
1822 to the Chinese Nationalist government in World War II. Mao
revived it in the "barefoot doctor" campaign in the 1960s as a cheap
way of providing care to the masses; he did not use it himself and
he did not believe it worked. It was Mao's government that coined
the term "traditional Chinese medicine" or TCM.

In 1972 James Reston accompanied Nixon to China and returned to tell
about his appendectomy. It was widely believed that his appendix was
removed under acupuncture anesthesia. In reality, acupuncture was
used only as an adjunct for pain relief the day after surgery, and
the relief was probably coincident with the expected return of
normal bowel motility. A widely circulated picture of a patient
allegedly undergoing open heart surgery with acupuncture anesthesia
was shown to be bogus. If acupuncture is used in surgery today, it
is used along with conventional anesthesia and/or pre-operative
meds, and it is selected only for patients who believe in it and are
likely to have a placebo response.

As acupuncture increased in popularity in the West, it declined in
the East. In 1995, visiting American physicians were told only 15-20
percent of Chinese chose TCM, and it was usually used along with
Western treatments after diagnosis by a Western-trained physician.
Apparently some patients choose TCM because it is all they can
afford: despite being a Communist country, China does not have
universal health coverage.

There were originally 360 acupuncture points (based on the number of
days of the year rather than on anatomy). Currently more than 2000
acupuncture points have been "discovered" leading one wag to comment
that there was no skin left that was not an acupuncture point. There
were either 9, 10, or 11 meridians -- take your pick. Any number is
as good as another, because no research has ever been able to
document the existence of acupuncture points or meridians or qi.

Does acupuncture work? Which type of acupuncture? And what do you
mean by "work"? There are various different Chinese systems, plus
Japanese, Thai, Korean and Indian modalities, most of which have
been invented over the last few decades: Whole body or limited to
the scalp, hand, ear, foot, or cheek and chin; deep or superficial;
with electrified needles; with dermal pad electrodes and no skin
penetration.

Acupuncture works in the same manner that placebos work too.
Acupuncture has been shown to "work" to relieve pain, nausea, and
other subjective symptoms, but it has never been shown to alter the
natural history or course of any disease. It's mostly used for pain
today, but the ancient Chinese maintained that it was not for the
treatment of manifest disease, was so subtle that it should only be
employed at the very beginning of a disease process, and was only
likely to work if the patient believed it would work. Now there's a
bit of ancient wisdom!

Studies have shown that acupuncture releases natural opioid pain
relievers in the brain: endorphins. Veterinarians have pointed out
that loading a horse into a trailer or throwing a stick for a dog
also releases endorphins. Probably hitting yourself on the thumb
with a hammer would release endorphins too, and it would take your
mind off your headache.

Psychologists can list plenty of other things that could explain the
apparent response to acupuncture. Diverting attention from original
symptoms to the sensation of needling, expectation, suggestion,
mutual consensus and compliance demand, causality error, classic
conditioning, reciprocal conditioning, operant conditioning,
operator conditioning, reinforcement, group consensus, economic and
emotional investment, social and political disaffection, social
rewards for believing, variable course of disease, regression to the
mean -- there are many ways human psychology can fool us into
thinking ineffective treatments are effective. Then there's the fact
that all placebos are not equal -- an elaborate system involving
lying down, relaxing, and spending time with a caring authority can
be expected to produce a much greater placebo effect than simply
taking a sugar pill.

There are plenty of studies showing that acupuncture works for
subjective symptoms like pain and nausea. But there are several
things that throw serious doubt on their findings. The results are
inconsistent, with some studies finding an effect and others not.
The higher quality studies are less likely to find an effect. Most
of the studies are done by believers in acupuncture. Many subjects
would not volunteer for an acupuncture trial unless they had a bias
towards believing it might work. The acupuncture studies coming from
China and other oriental countries are all positive -- but then
nearly everything coming out of China is positive. It's not
culturally acceptable to publish negative results because
researchers would lose face and their jobs.

The biggest problem with acupuncture studies is finding an adequate
placebo control. You're sticking needles in people. People notice
that. Double blinding is impossible: you might be able to fool
patients into thinking you've used a needle when you haven't, but
there's no way to blind the person doing the needling. Two kinds of
controls have been used: comparing acupuncture points to non-points,
and using an ingenious needle in a sheath that appears to have
penetrated the skin when it hasn't.

In George Ulett's research, he found that applying an electrical
current to the skin of the wrist -- a kind of TENS (transcutaneous
electrical nerve stimulation) treatment -- worked just as well as
inserting needles, and one point on the wrist worked for symptoms
anywhere in the body.

Guess what? It doesn't matter where you put the needle. It doesn't
matter whether you use a needle at all. In the best controlled
studies, only one thing mattered: whether the patients believed they
were getting acupuncture. If they believed they got the real thing,
they got better pain relief -- whether they actually got acupuncture
or not! If they got acupuncture but believed they didn't, it didn't
work. If they didn't get it but believed they did, it did work.

A 2005 study published in the Journal of the American Medical
Association compared the experiences of 302 people suffering from
migraines who received either acupuncture, sham acupuncture (needles
inserted at non-acupuncture points), or no acupuncture. During the
study, the patients kept headache diaries. Subjects were "blind" to
which experimental group they were in; the evaluators also did not
know whose diary they were reading. Professional acupuncturists
administered both the acupuncture and sham acupuncture treatments.
Interestingly, although 51 percent of the acupuncture group showed a
reduction in headache days by half (compared to 15 percent in the
control group), but 53 percent of the sham acupuncture group had a
50 percent reduction in headache days!

Considering the inconsistent research results, the implausibility of
qi and meridians, and the many questions that remain, it's
reasonable to conclude that acupuncture is nothing more than a
recipe for an elaborate placebo seasoned with a soupcon of
counter-irritant. You can play human pincushion if you want, and you
might get a good placebo response, but there's no evidence you'll
get anything more.

Note: Part of this article was adapted from a PowerPoint
presentation
<http://drspinello.com/altmed/acuvet/acuvet_files/frame.htm>
prepared by the late Dr. Robert Imrie. It's well worth a visit; it
includes great pictures of camelpuncture, goatpuncture, and
chickenpuncture.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.clubbchimera.com
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:01 pm

Just got the email myself and just downloaded the podcast, cracking article.

Im wondering if I can legally do anything to bust these chinese acupuncturists and herbalist stores in my town that say they havean MD in acupuncture and herbology etc?

Cheers,

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jamie Clubb
Snr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 296
Age : 42
Job/hobbies : Coach/Writer
Humor : Groucho Marx, Tony Hancock, Bill Cosby, Billy Connolly, Paul Merton, Ricky Gervais
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:22 pm

I plead complete ignorance with acupuncture. It seems to be a taboo area with a lot of rational people involved in medicine and therapy. My sports therapist swears by it for example. I have only begun looking at it since I became sceptical regarding the many interpretations relating to pressure points - there is acupressure too.

I posted it on Martial Edge and guess what type of response I got? (the post is on page 6, just in case this just takes you to the beginning of the thread):

http://www.martialedge.net/forum/martial-arts-talk/re%3achi,-ki,-universal-energy?-science-or-spiritual?/12/60/
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.clubbchimera.com
tim
Member


Number of posts : 70
Registration date : 2008-08-07

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:29 pm

I've never had it done but it does seem to have some effect (going by reports at least), just not for reasons actually given.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:44 pm

Well I stuck my ore in now and posted this thread on martial edge in the interests of showing both sides,

hopefully it should stimulate conversation and logical thinking comes in to play.

Just praying no one attacks my credentials again as they do on so many forums lol!

Regards,

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jamie Clubb
Snr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 296
Age : 42
Job/hobbies : Coach/Writer
Humor : Groucho Marx, Tony Hancock, Bill Cosby, Billy Connolly, Paul Merton, Ricky Gervais
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:37 pm

The debaters seem very reasonable and there is some interesting discussion, however, I chose the wrong thread and feel a little guilty for going too far off-topic.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.clubbchimera.com
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:03 pm

Dont worry about it Jamie,

everybody goes off topic at some point,

thats what admin's for, to steer it back if anyones really bothered,

just keep civil and keep putting information from credible sources out there and no one can blame you for that m8,

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jamie Clubb
Snr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 296
Age : 42
Job/hobbies : Coach/Writer
Humor : Groucho Marx, Tony Hancock, Bill Cosby, Billy Connolly, Paul Merton, Ricky Gervais
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:43 pm

I don't care about upsetting anyone, I just like to be respectful to the topic. I am a sod for tangenting full stop. I think I have Billy Connolly-itus. Anyway we have moved away from acupuncture now and gone into the other realms of the chi business, which just seems to me to show that it is - at best - an outmoded way to describe energy. As I said before, I can accept the spiritual idea so long as those who embrace it don't then try to prove its existance through parlour tricks and pseudoscience.

Any chance you could post on my martial arts cults topic again? I tried to bring it to the front, but it quickly got swamped. I think it is being neglected when it is a great source for information on several currently popular topics on that forum.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.clubbchimera.com
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:50 pm

Jamie Clubb wrote:
As I said before, I can accept the spiritual idea so long as those who embrace it don't then try to prove its existance through parlour tricks and pseudoscience. .

My exact sentiments mate and no probs on the cult link, its done,

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jamie Clubb
Snr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 296
Age : 42
Job/hobbies : Coach/Writer
Humor : Groucho Marx, Tony Hancock, Bill Cosby, Billy Connolly, Paul Merton, Ricky Gervais
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:37 pm

Thanks, but I bet no one follows you up on it. Such things are not comfortable to discuss in the martial arts community ;-)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.clubbchimera.com
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:15 pm

Just a follow up on the Qi thread, im trying to get back to what qi is. If we accept Qi as energy and it can be reduced to e = mc2 that still does not tell me what it does! All known energy does something hence the question 'does it heal/kill or both?'.

Paris bless her cherry picking quotes from books to try and support her belief system does not sit well with me, which is possibly how I came across aggressive, I hate good scnce being manipulated in the same way Jamies is annoyed by history being twisted to fit.

Admittedly I havent looked at Paris's long post on science proving Qi properly, but I read enough to see inconsistencies with good science and again a lot of it is her beliefs, not facts and again confusing a scientific theory with english language theory. That is based on lack of scientific background and relying on books for the layman.

I think I posted a physics forum link on here that would blow that 'science' post away.

However I do not want to start all this stuff up again, Ilready mentioned things like 'quantum physics being relatively new' in comparison to theory of gravity which has 200 years of empirical evidence to support it! Which also means there are set laws of gravity, but again people will always cherry pick science to make their beliefs work.

All I can say is if Taoquan is going to take the search for Qi seriously, he has got years of science ahead of him and it may never, as I believe come to fruition.

I cannot believe up to now an energy that Physics/biology and chemistry has not found which can heal or harm. Maybe im cynical but so many doctors, pysicists, biologists have debunked Qi its hard to believe, unless they get some serious evidence, which all theories gain to some degree, Im no buying in.

As to the youtube dark matter video, it was a very basic overview, a little bit on the fringe side of reporting and saying at the end it ould overturn Darwins theory of evolution, 150yrs of empirical data! Smacks of creationists to me, could be wrong but........

Regards,

Den

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Jamie Clubb
Snr Member
avatar

Male Number of posts : 296
Age : 42
Job/hobbies : Coach/Writer
Humor : Groucho Marx, Tony Hancock, Bill Cosby, Billy Connolly, Paul Merton, Ricky Gervais
Registration date : 2008-06-20

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:49 pm

I haven't really followed it all since you and Paris started talking. I understand your frustration and all these different explanations for qi, coupled with the widespread obvious charlatanism and quackery going on means that I will need a hell of a lot of convincing to believe in the physical existance of qi.

Dark Matter and Quantum Mechanics, like Chaos Theory, are annoyingly thrown about as if they were joker cards that completely throw all of accepted science into doubt. It just doesn't wash with me.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.clubbchimera.com
undercover sceptic
Admin
avatar

Male Number of posts : 520
Age : 45
Location : N.E. England
Job/hobbies : reading popular science, research.
Humor : Dry
Registration date : 2008-06-18

PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:00 pm

Through pm Paris tried to explain she believes every force, gravity etc are all one. This is based on her assumptions of what she has read about quantum physics, which we both know is bandied by the new age movement a lot.

Infact Point of Inquiry are discussng just this in this weeks podcast although I havent had chance to listen to it yet.

What I was trying to get at on there has came across wrong but im just going to leave it, ting to change fundamental laws, not hypotheses or theories, laws of physics will take an extraordinary amount of evidence. Far more than someone posting a you tube vid and readig some outdated laymans books on the subject.

Anyway I tried thats all i can do i suppose,

Cheers,

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Chi Master   

Back to top Go down
 
Chi Master
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» What happens to the master/disciple relationship when a master leaves?
» What is an ascended master?
» Master Number 33
» Master Numbers: 11, 22, 33
» Rev. Master Eko's resignation

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Undercover Sceptic :: Scepticism :: Martial arts-
Jump to: