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 Are you a euro skeptic?

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Rob
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PostSubject: Are you a euro skeptic?   Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:28 pm

The Irish have done pretty well out of the EU it has to be said. But to be honest, from a personal point of view, I was never in favor of becoming one big happy European family. And I guess I'm not the only one... as we recently shot down the Lisbon treaty.

I like being part of a group for economics - this make perfect sense, but that's as far as it goes imo. I don't personally like the idea of being controlled by a group in Brussels.

Where do you guys stand?
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:32 pm

I don't have strong feelings on the issue one way or the other.

What I will say though is most people I know who voted no did so for bad reasons. They didn't really know what they were voting for, or they were protest voting. Most people were very poorly informed IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:37 pm

Hey Tim,

Your absolutely correct. Most people didn't have a clue what they were voting for. Typical organization skills from Fianna Foil.

As you said a lot of people did it out of protest and mistrust of the currant Irish government. Can't say I blame them...
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:55 pm

I plead ignorance!!!!

I studied economics/personal finance at uni but the last year I havent followed politics or finance at all!!

Still would prefer to keep the £ though.

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:38 pm

In all fairness if I lived in England I'd want to keep the pound too. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:25 am

I am very careful about discussing certain politics with friends. However, I see it is safe to raise my head above the parapit here. I am definitely Eurosceptic. There just seems to be a case of much of Europe wants us to join and most of us don't want to. What does that tell you?
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:52 pm

Just been catching up on The Economist and it seems that they are just trying to bail out the banks because the finance sector underpins everything and to allow them to collapse would cause a disastrous domino effect throughout the economy.

The problem theyre facing is how to rescue them without pi**ing everybody off!!!

Happy you brought this up Rob it stoked my interest in personal finance,

cheers mate,

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:41 am

Quote :
There just seems to be a case of much of Europe wants us to join and most of us don't want to. What does that tell you?
Do you mean the general public? If so it doesn't really tell us a whole lot of the vast majority of people really know very little about it. For example, I would bet that the majority, or at least a high percentage, of people who want to keep the pound instead of going euro will have based their reasoning on emotion rather than economics. Most of the 'euroskeptics' I've come acrosss in the real world at least know very little about europe or it's institutions when it comes down to it, for most it comes down to some ideology they have or the fear of being controlled by some ‘foreign’ body.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:37 pm

I almost totally agree about the general public.

I definately have a fear of being controlled by a 'foreign' body, instilled in me years ago when I lacked critical thinking skills. Coupled with the fact that I do not read newspapers, watch the news, do not follow politics programmes etc all I can say is I want control to stay in the hands of the UK and following the strength of the pound in comparison to the euro, as well as changing of currency and cost involved etc I want to stay British.

I guess I am just a EuroCynic!

Also as the experts cant decide on the outcome of joining Europe as a contingent for good or bad I would rather stay out of it, rule ourselves as it always has been and always should,

but thats pride messing with me
Laughing

Den.

Forgot to mention I almost totally agree because I do not have any statistics to hand. Perhaps Britain s 1% EuroSceptic knowledgeable, or maybe 99% and Tim spoke to the 1% like myself that are not very knowledgeable on the subject. I just do not have the figures so I cannot comment Neutral

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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:27 pm

I guess another big problem I have - and I am aware that this is not a proper sceptical argument - is the fact that a disproportionate number of politicians who are part of the current governing party have become European ministers, and they happen to be the party who want us to join Europe. I guess I couple that with the fact that the pound is still stronger than the Euro even in our current economic decline.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:39 pm

Quote :
I definately have a fear of being controlled by a 'foreign' body, instilled in me years ago when I lacked critical thinking skills. Coupled with the fact that I do not read newspapers, watch the news, do not follow politics programmes etc all I can say is I want control to stay in the hands of the UK…
So yes, you do not hold those views for particularly good or well thought out reasons.

Quote :
and following the strength of the pound in comparison to the euro, as well as changing of currency and cost involved etc I want to stay British.
The value of the pound, along with the dollar, has fallen quite a lot over the past while in relation to the euro. Hence we’re getting great deals buying from the states and the UK at the moment.

Quote :
Also as the experts cant decide on the outcome of joining Europe as a contingent for good or bad I would rather stay out of it, rule ourselves as it always has been and always should,

but thats pride messing with me
Indeed it is.


Quote :
Also as the experts cant decide on the outcome of joining Europe…
Quote :
they happen to be the party who want us to join Europe…
Do guys do know that the UK is a part of the EU already right?! Very Happy Shocked

Quote :
I guess another big problem I have - and I am aware that this is not a proper sceptical argument - is the fact that a disproportionate number of politicians who are part of the current governing party have become European ministers, and they happen to be the party who want us to join Europe.
Indeed it is not. I’m seeing a distinct lack of a sceptical outlook on this thread actually.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:25 pm

As I say Tim,

im Eurocynic and have no problem with that,

politics aint my bag so I steer clear,

I have better things to do with my time,

which is why I do not vote Very Happy

Regards,

Den.

Also at time of writing the GBP is still stronger than the Euro.

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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:34 pm

Eurocynic! That's class. I think that describes me too. Smile

I see it as another mechanism of group conformity and control. I'm not saying there are no benefits of being in the EU, the Irish did pretty well out of it. However, I don't see why we should accept Europe's world view and political agenda.

I don't really want to be part of a big "pseudo" happy family.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:30 am

Quote :
Also at time of writing the GBP is still stronger than the Euro.
Well yes, but economics is unfortunately a tad more complicated than just 'one currency is worth more than the other'.

This thread just goes to show I suppose that people tend to only be 'skeptical' about so much. If something is either uninteresting or too difficult one can always just resort to cynicism.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:39 am

[quote="tim"]
Quote :
This thread just goes to show I suppose that people tend to only be 'skeptical' about so much. If something is either uninteresting or too difficult one can always just resort to cynicism.

Please explain why I should, or we should not be cynical about joining Europe?

Also, I see cynicism as an important part of being skeptical - especially when most of the power lies with other people and there's not a hell of a lot you can do.

I also think there's a hell of a lot of people now regretting that they joined with Europe. Again, I give you the Lisbon treaty as an example, and guys like England keeping their own currency (much like the Sweden do).
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:46 am

Tim,

as a sceptic do you honestly expect me to be sceptical of everything?

There are fundamentalist sceptics which are sceptic of scepticism, sceptic of truth in any variety,

this would mean im sceptical of you Tim and your motivations for being here Smile

If you decide to be an extreme sceptic thats fine, my branch is the furtherance of science and if I come across pseudoscience and fringe science which I find questionable I shall focus my gaze upon it.

Being a sceptic does not require me to be sceptical of everything, what I eat, drink, politics, martial arts, Ping pong, Badly fitting bras et al.

Where does the madness end.

I also applaud you teaching me economics after I studied it at uni.

Like I say my focus is science and as I hope you know there are thousands of off shoots of science, no one can be sceptical in all areas, except fcourse fundamentalists.

So yes I am eurocynic by choice, is that bad? No.

Must I be sceptical and research every scrap of evidence on everything? No!

I have a life! Unlike fundamentalists, PCT's True believers etc My time is worth more than that.

Regards,

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:01 pm

Booyah! - Great post Den!
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:18 pm

Quote :
Tim,

as a sceptic do you honestly expect me to be sceptical of everything?

There are fundamentalist sceptics which are sceptic of scepticism, sceptic of truth in any variety,

this would mean im sceptical of you Tim and your motivations for being here

If you decide to be an extreme sceptic thats fine, my branch is the furtherance of science and if I come across pseudoscience and fringe science which I find questionable I shall focus my gaze upon it.

Being a sceptic does not require me to be sceptical of everything, what I eat, drink, politics, martial arts, Ping pong, Badly fitting bras et al.

Where does the madness end.

I also applaud you teaching me economics after I studied it at uni.

Like I say my focus is science and as I hope you know there are thousands of off shoots of science, no one can be sceptical in all areas, except fcourse fundamentalists.

So yes I am eurocynic by choice, is that bad? No.

Must I be sceptical and research every scrap of evidence on everything? No!

I have a life! Unlike fundamentalists, PCT's True believers etc My time is worth more than that.

Regards,

Den.

Hi Den,

I am not for a second suggesting that one should be sceptical of everything and spend all ones time investigating every subject. What I am suggesting is that if a person doesn’t having the will or inclination to inform themselves on a subject, e.g. the EU or the Euro, then they should hold off forming views on the subject, or at the very least hold off forming strong views on it. For me that is important part of scepticism, not coming to conclusions before looking at the facts. Not to do so seems to be more in line with the rationale of the fundamentalists and ‘true believers’ you mention. As I’ve said already, I don’t hold strong views on the EU in general. I found it quite amusing talking to some people before the Lisbon Treaty so had definite strong views on the subject yet clearly knew quite a bit less about it than I did.

Quote :
I also applaud you teaching me economics after I studied it at uni.
Well you seemed to be suggesting that it was better for the UK to stay out of the Eurozone purely because 1 pound is worth more than 1 euro, so that wouldn’t have been obvious to me. Maybe I took you up wrong on this point?

Hi Rob,
Quote :
Please explain why I should, or we should not be cynical about joining Europe? Please explain why I should, or we should not be cynical about joining Europe?
Ya your right, what have the Europeans ever done for us? Rolling Eyes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaE3EaQte78

Quote :
I also think there's a hell of a lot of people now regretting that they joined with Europe. Again, I give you the Lisbon treaty as an example, and guys like England keeping their own currency (much like the Sweden do).

As should be obvious at this stage, I don’t put a whole lot of stock in what ‘lots of people’ think. If you read about any of the surveys done after Lisbon was rejected a huge amount of the reasons given either were unrelated to the actual treaty (protest votes etc) or were for very misinformed opinions.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:35 pm

Tim, Did you read any of my posts? I DID SAY we benefited greatly from Europe.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:05 pm

Yes you did but you also said "Please explain why I should, or we should not be cynical about joining Europe? Please explain why I should, or we should not be cynical about joining Europe?"

The main reason being that as you said we have benefited hugely from it. There is no question but that membership of the EU has a very positive effect on our economy. A better question to ask IMO would be why should one be cyncial about Europe?
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:16 pm

I think I've already stated my thought's on Europe earlier.... and why we should be cynical of their political and social agendas.

I like the idea of being "economic" buddies with these guys, it's good for everyone. For trade and a single currency, etc. But I don't necessarily agree with their ideological agendas or some of their laws.
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:56 pm

Quote :
I think I've already stated my thought's on Europe earlier.... and why we should be cynical of their political and social agendas.
I look over the posts again and I really don’t see where you explain why we should be cynical, other than saying that we shouldn’t accept ‘Europe's world view and political agenda’, which is a quite vague really, and implies that there is a homogenous world view that the rest of the countries in the EU subscribe too, which would be debatable to say the very least. Maybe I’m missing something here?
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:59 pm

Maybe you should tell me why we should accept some of their laws, etc.... and I'm not including economics here.


Last edited by Rob on Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:30 pm

I'm really not sure what you mean by "why should accept them". Why we should accept what exactly?
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PostSubject: Re: Are you a euro skeptic?   Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:32 pm

Sorry that was a poor choice of words. My mistake.... fixed now.
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