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 How to spot the cowboys.

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PostSubject: How to spot the cowboys.   Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:18 am

Please use this thread to teach people new to martial arts how to apply critical thought and questioning to weed out the cowboy instructors and thus avoid ending up in a martial cult!

Regards,

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:54 am

Hah... weird coincidence, I was going to put a thread up called Martial Art red flags. But ye' beat me to it. Nice one... Smile

Warning. I've got a lot of stuff to go in here. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:49 pm

There are exceptions to every rule, but here are some of my own personal guidelines. In no particular order.

1) Anyone that has awarded them selves a very high rank. There are far too many 10th Degrees out there these days.

2) Any Dojo or gym that does not understand the difference between a brutal street fight, and a consensual sparring match in a ring - where equal initiative is given to both parties.

3) Traditional techniques touted as being viable for street defense. Such as "Blocking", specific Defenses, flashy or overcomplicated moves.

4) Any Dojo that doesn't understand that at close range, "action beats reaction". Also understanding that fights take place at "handshake distance" (as Mr. O'Keefe would say) and not sparring distance.

5) Any Dojo that does not teach, or understand the importance of "mindset", and other subjects such as "fear and adrenaline".

6) Any Dojo that does not understand the "enemy of today", and how they will nearly always attack a victim through, dialogue or some kind of ruse.

More on the way.
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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:23 pm

I am a little confused. Question scratch

The title says " How to spot cowboys", Den is asking for PC on cults and Rob has just listed PC for defecient (or highly dubious) self-defence instruction. I appreciate a club can be all three, but they are also distintively different.

For example, my kickboxing coach was a cowboy, but much of his teaching was pragmatic and he did not try to control his students - only his instructors to a certain degree.

Cowboys: Con-men. Usually short-term operators who take your money and run. Watch out for heavy sales, compulsorary equipment, especially in a new club.

Cults: Trouble is my view is that the majority of martial arts schools exhibit cult-like methods. However, there are extreme examples. It is pretty much down to the way they try to control their students and enforce a "them and us" attitude. Shermer's PC for cults from "Why People Believe Weird Things" is completely transferrable to martial arts cults. It is in the first post on the Martial Arts Cults thread in this forum.

Ineffecient self-defence instruction: Controversial as everything should be up for review, but Rob's list is pretty damn good.
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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:27 pm

You are confused because of my lack of knowledge regarding MA and me lumping the 2 together,

my apologies Embarassed

Me thinks me should stay out of the MA board!

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:51 am

Quote :
You are confused because of my lack of knowledge regarding MA and me lumping the 2 together,

my apologies

Me thinks me should stay out of the MA board!

You know more about MA than I do about science! Don't leave this board, they'll only be three of us left on here!
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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:25 pm

I feel all three can be compatible, and often do intertwine, so one post can fit all.

Den, your thoughts on Martial Arts are always welcome and are very insightful. It's great to have a different perspective. So do stay! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:36 pm

Ok but Im dead jealous of your avatar, and its dead funny Laughing

I WANT ONE WAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Regards,

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:42 pm

Heh... Thanks, I drew it up last night.

Think it conveys the true ghost busting agenda in my opinion. Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:12 pm

Quote :
I feel all three can be compatible, and often do intertwine, so one post can fit all.

Yes and no for the reasons I outlined in my previous post. I think your PCs deal with just bad SD teaching. There is plenty of that about, but I don't think that automatically makes the club a cult nor a rip-off merchant. They can be merely misguided. I have been to small clubs that do nothing to control their students, operate like its a hobby, are honest and believe that what they teach is good SD even when it isn't. They are not cults or cowboys just teaching ineffecient SD. Having said that, my own research and personal experiences are leading me to believe that between 70-80% (a figure taken purely out of my head) of martial arts classes and associations (regardless of their technical ability) exhibit cult-like traits to different degrees.

Quote :
Den, your thoughts on Martial Arts are always welcome and are very insightful. It's great to have a different perspective. So do stay!

Here! Here!

Quote :

Heh... Thanks, I drew it up last night.

Think it conveys the true ghost busting agenda in my opinion.


Abso-f'ing-lutely! I'd love to spread it around unless you want to put some sort of trademark on it. It could be the logo for Den's ghostly forum ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:01 pm

I was thinking that myself Rob, or would that be a bit too cheeky lol!

Regards,

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: How to spot the cowboys.   Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:43 pm

You guys are welcome to it! I love you
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