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 Whatís the motivation?

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Rob
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PostSubject: Re: Whatís the motivation?   Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:36 pm

The chances of a plane crashing are pretty low - it's the safest form of travel and all. But pilots are still trained in emergency tactics in case thing go badly.

Traveling in your car you still put a safety belt on, right? But the chances of being badly injured in a car accident, are quite low. Does that mean I'm not going to wear a safety belt? Of course not. Because you can't ever say that you wont be involved in some kind of accident.

And the same can be said for most of the people I know, who are just average Joe's. Have all been in some kind of violent confrontation at one point or another.

Hindsight is a great thing...
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tim
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PostSubject: Re: Whatís the motivation?   Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:01 pm

Quote :
I think there is a lot more hidden impact in BJJ than people realize and you get more contact around the face than you do in strike-based training simply because you are not guarding as such.
I havenít experienced this to be honest.

Quote :

I hope my source is mistaken as SBG has a lot good things to offer the martial arts world and I have learnt a fair deal from their approach.
I think its fair to say that SBG will always be an MMA group, not solely a BJJ one.

Quote :
You have my sympathies a lot people go down the grappling only route as they get older. Nevertheless I would never neglect practicing my bag and, more importantly, pad work (another area I believe Matt disapproves of, could that be an example of something the rest of SBG doesn't endorse?)
I donít know TBH. I know I did plenty of bag work in SBG Manchester anyway.

Quote :
Unfortunately to train like this all the time in sparring gets us close to the old semi-contact point sparring mentality. It teaches a "you got me" mentality, which isn't great either for competition or self-defence.
Not really. Iíll go for an armbar full out in a tough sparring session, Iíll be fighting to get it, the other guy will be trying to escape. Once I have it secured and the hand is straightened we can stop. Obviously that wonít always happen if the guy thinks he can escape but it does a lot of the time. All Iím saying is that you donít need to yank on a armbar hard ever time, the hard part is securing it, going from having the arm straight to causing pain does not need to be done ever time. I suppose this is something that is done by more experience people than new guys.

Quote :
Even when you are compliantly going through the technique you need to know that it is on. It has to be confirmed and confirmed fairly regularly or you get sloppy technique. The amount of times I have seen white belts (and been there myself) where they have the "shape" but lose the submission because they can't get the vital % in there.
Agreed, this isnít really what I was talking about though.

Quote :
Yes, but out of that population of people who don't train realistic self-defence, how many are the predators, how many are the doorstaff, how many are the streetfighters, how many work in security etc?
Out of the entire population of say Ireland or England? Pretty small Iíd guess.

Quote :
What I am saying is a fair number (although I consent not the majority) don't train self-defence because they already practice it on a regular basis learnt through the circumstances they are placed
A fair number of the population at large? I doubt it.
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tim
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PostSubject: Re: Whatís the motivation?   Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:16 pm

Quote :
The chances of a plane crashing are pretty low - it's the safest form of travel and all. But pilots are still trained in emergency tactics in case thing go badly.

Traveling in your car you still put a safety belt on, right? But the chances of being badly injured in a car accident, are quite low. Does that mean I'm not going to wear a safety belt? Of course not. Because you can't ever say that you wont be involved in some kind of accident.
Nobody is claiming different. But training SP/SD numerous times a week is not analogous to it for the reasons already given.
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Jamie Clubb
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PostSubject: Re: Whatís the motivation?   Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:04 pm

Quote :
Quote:
I think there is a lot more hidden impact in BJJ than people realize and you get more contact around the face than you do in strike-based training simply because you are not guarding as such.
I havenít experienced this to be honest.

I see plenty of black eyes and cut lips in BJJ. The pure nature of grappling means that your head is regular contact with another person.

Quote :
Quote:
You have my sympathies a lot people go down the grappling only route as they get older. Nevertheless I would never neglect practicing my bag and, more importantly, pad work (another area I believe Matt disapproves of, could that be an example of something the rest of SBG doesn't endorse?)
I donít know TBH. I know I did plenty of bag work in SBG Manchester anyway.

I refer to the famous scene where Matt bins the focus mitts. If you did some bagwork with Karl than I can guess that might be decent evidence of diversity in opinion.

Quote :
Quote:
Unfortunately to train like this all the time in sparring gets us close to the old semi-contact point sparring mentality. It teaches a "you got me" mentality, which isn't great either for competition or self-defence.
Not really. Iíll go for an armbar full out in a tough sparring session, Iíll be fighting to get it, the other guy will be trying to escape. Once I have it secured and the hand is straightened we can stop. Obviously that wonít always happen if the guy thinks he can escape but it does a lot of the time. All Iím saying is that you donít need to yank on a armbar hard ever time, the hard part is securing it, going from having the arm straight to causing pain does not need to be done ever time. I suppose this is something that is done by more experience people than new guys.

I didn't say anything about yanking a bar or lock on. I often let go once I have the arm or leg secured and straight, sometimes even before the tap, especially if I am rolling with less experienced grapplers. These areas of the body differ considerably to the soft tissue and exposed arteries around the neck. A bar or lock is significantly less dangerous than a choke or strangle, which has been reflected in many different rule-sets children's Judo and BJJ, and sport Sombo (as opposed to Combat Sombo, which MMA with the gi or SD).

Quote :
Quote:
Yes, but out of that population of people who don't train realistic self-defence, how many are the predators, how many are the doorstaff, how many are the streetfighters, how many work in security etc?
Out of the entire population of say Ireland or England? Pretty small Iíd guess.

Quote:
What I am saying is a fair number (although I consent not the majority) don't train self-defence because they already practice it on a regular basis learnt through the circumstances they are placed
A fair number of the population at large? I doubt it.

You must be kidding! I now live in a middle class affluent suburb and violence is becoming more and more common. Violence of the recreational type too - groups of people picking on single individuals. At this point it is probably worth mentioning that Ireland's crime is very different in nature than that in England and Scotland. Here is one massively significant difference that puts it more in line with a country like Italy for example: It has not had one single serial killer in its recorded history. England has had record numbers of them. Serial killers may be rare (although statistically they appear to be on the rise as countries become more industrialized), but they are the extreme example of "recreational criminals". What I mean by recreational crime is crime being perpertrated not for aviarice or even obvious signs of rage - crimes committed for the hell of it. Francis Gilbert's "Yob Nation" depicts a steady rise in these types of crime and police testimonies that show although crime statistics are going down, percentage-wise recreational crime is going up. Violence, as can be seen by the trends of happy slapping, steaming etc., is a common outlet for recreational violence. In most cases the criminals are not your usual drunkard who can't finish his Saturday night beer without a good one-on-one out on the green, but packs of people (getting younger all the time) who find it entertaining to attack and intimidate on en masse. From what I have heard and seen, even in my own street, they are caring less for how big or physically intimidating their target is either. In fact, our local powerlifter was victimized for months by one pack of kids.
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Rob
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PostSubject: Re: Whatís the motivation?   Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:39 pm

Hmm... I see an impasse here....

Tim, I'm afraid were not really going to agree with you here.

I see self-defense training as important (obviously it's not mandatory). Remember, were all from SP backgrounds, and myself and the other guys are unlikely to change our minds.

Like Jamie, I see things getting quite a bit worse. And I'm not the only one... so do my friends and colleagues. As I keep saying that most of my mates, and lots of people I know, have all been in some form, or potentially dangerous situation on more than one occasion.

So if you're into the training, and it gives you confidence, exercise, skills. I'd always say to people, "go for it".

Most of the guys that have come to me, have all come down because they are afraid (real or imaginary), or have had an experience, and want to take some form of control in the future.

Things are not likely to change anytime soon, no matter what the MMA lads say. There is a demand for self-defense - It's the way things are.
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PostSubject: Re: Whatís the motivation?   Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:58 pm

tim wrote:
Many people claim what they train is relevant for self defence. Others train specifically for self defence. Many (most) martial artists take these motivations are a given. My question is why?

Why spend time training for self defence? Is this logical? Is it rational?

It should first be noted that many claim that they train for self defence but often times this training can be completely unrealistic, other times itís just a claim people make but donít back up. They actual just train in their martial art and give very little thought to self defence, but theyíll still put it on their posters when advertising.

In this thread Iím not concerned with the above, but rather with people who actually do genuinely train for self defence. Very often this training can be complete nonsense, but not always so. But effective or otherwise, why do people do it? If a guy lives in a relatively safe suburb of some relatively safe city then the chances of him needing self defence skills are probably quite slim. Yet people like this can still spend hours and hours training their self defence skills? I wonder this honestly because they want to improve their SD skills, and if so why, or if there some other reason.

There would certainly be some circumstances where training for self protection could definitely be justified but I think for the vast majority of people this is not the case.

I wonder if people who do this are really being honest with themselves as to their motivations. You guys in poor physical conditions and there are training Ďfor the streetí. If they were really worried about self protection then theyíd be eating less and exercising more.

Do people do it because they are insecure or have low self esteem? This to me would seem likely at least for some people. Doing self defence training might potentially build confidence and make them feel better about themselves.

Or do others simply enough training but feel they need some justification for doing it? It gives a supposed purpose to training, and isnít just some hobbie or pastime (many martial artists hate to think of what they do as a hobbie!)

Maybe others like the feeling of empowerment they get from the training. Maybe it makes them feel tough etc

Others here I know do train with self protection in mind so Iíd be interested in hearing some opinions.

Tim,
it seems you have had 4 pages of opinions and Rob's final words 'I see an impasse here' seems to tie things up nicely.

We have gave opinions of fear of crime being the main motivating factor!

If this is not logical thats ok, I mentioned earlier fear is not based on logic. You asked for opinion why people sign up for SD training.

You have your opinions on said subject and I suggest you wrap up the thread with that in mind.

If you feel sceptical about this being a major motivating factor please feel free to survey a cross section of practising martial artists, or even just the main self defence guys, Geoff Thompson, Dave Turton, et al, bring their opinions here, present the evidence and go from there.

It's ok to be sceptical but if you wish to continue this thread with the belief fear is not a motivating factor then the burden of proof is on your shoulders.

Two op guys with experience and knowledge gave their opinions, I gave my opinion, there really is nothing more to be said.

If you are sceptical about something else please feel free to start a fresh thread, as enjoyable as this is we are going round in circles and no hard testimonial evidence is forthcoming!

Regards,

Den.

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Rob
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PostSubject: Re: Whatís the motivation?   Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:23 am

Good one Den... Think it's about time to cast our skeptical eyes on some other subjects.

Cheers,

R.
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