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 DIM MAK

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PostSubject: DIM MAK   Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:06 am

Does Dim Mak really work or is this just another fairy tale?

regards,

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:33 pm

I am sure that there are certain points on the body that do disable a person, not sure about it causing death though.

I would have to look into alleged deaths caused by this if thats the case.

Along with all the other hocus pocus it pertains to.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:57 pm

Hi Guys,

(Kim great to have you here on the forum).

Ironically, I've just come back form Southampton training with Lee Morrison. Smile

To be honest I don't know that much about Dim Mak, but I very much doubt the existence of the elusive "death touch".

My real problem about this type of pressure point striking is the ability to do it under the pressure of a real violent confrontation. You always see "the master" apply
the strike to a very compliant student. When in reality, you'd probably be faced with an opponent who displays maximum aggression with primal violent intent. Plus, when they are highly Adrenalyzed or on drugs - they wont feel a thing until afterwards. Smile

Rob.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:08 pm

Heres an example of some of the fakery that goes on. Sad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:27 pm

Totally bizarre stuff...

Sad thing is that there are probably some ejits out there that will probably want to train with that kook, and believe his skills to be genuine. While I'm not an MMA fan, one thing that it has done is really has raised the bar for realism in the Martial Arts (not that I think it it's ideal for the street).

R.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:25 pm

This is the one EVERYONE should watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

Pressure points, in my humble view, are just vulnerable areas of the body. No great secret. For me a pressure point is the "button" on jawline that cause the brain shake that results in a knockout, the solar plexus that results in winding a person, the quadraceps, where a lot nerves are located that when hit hard can sometimes even make you feel nausea (although whether that is to do with a physiological response rather than a psychological one I am not sure), the medula at the base of the skull, the groin, the throat, the carotid artery etc., etc. These can easily be explained by modern science, proven under pressure and we have plenty of case studies to confirm their effeciency both in the sporting and the "real" world. If that is what someone wants to believe in when they say "pressure points" then I happy, at the moment, to go along with this, although I prefer the title "vulnerable areas" and would include the nose, ears and eyes, which aren't typically thought of as targets for pressure points.

Generally speaking when you press soft tissue it hurts. No great revelation there. As kids we discovered that by pinching and giving each other "Chinese Burns". Areas where the bone is very close to the surface of the skin are not always a picnic in the park when they are struck or put under pressure. In the midst of a fight (either in grappling sports or real life) it is perfectly normal to see people exploiting such areas as a "support tactics". They hurt and can hurt even under the effects of adrenaline, however, are rarely "fight stoppers". Heavy trauma to the head is a fight stopper. Heavy trauma to neck either through percussive techniques like punches and palm strikes or through constrictive techniques like chokes and strangles are fight stoppers. We have countless case studies that prove this. They are high percentage methods for finishing fights conclusively.

With this in mind we come to the "scientific" grey area of pressure points. This is where the methods of the sceptic are brought in to back up unusual claims of pressure point effectiveness, as seen in the link I posted. This sort of "parlour trick" chicanery has more in common with the old telly super-evangelists and their ilk via the psychological phenomons often described as "mass hysteria" and the "power of suggestion". However, the DIM MAK has also been given the so-called "scientific" treatment. The TV series "Fight Science", for example, claimed that through their tests the Ninjutsu Death Touch was "proven" to be the deadiest martial arts move. By rigging up a dummy that registered the impact of strikes. The heart strike (death touch or Dim Mak) was registered as being the most traumatic to the body and therefore most potentially lethal. The Dim Mak was described as like doing CPR in reverse and sounds plausible in abstract theory. However, in practice it is another matter.

Out of all those who hit the dummy it was the ninja character who was most content - not because he came out the best, but because at last he had a chance to "test" his technique. The boxer, Thai boxer etc. knew their techniques worked under pressure. They had knocked out and subdued people with them in "live" situations. This is the problem. Testing something in supposed clinical conditions is not enough. We need case studies, especially in matters relating to self-defence. The case studies for heavy low kicks, hand strikes to the head, chokes and strangles all being used to stop people are ample. The only case study I have heard that comes close to proving the effectiveness of the Dim Mak or heart punch was a freak accident where an ice hockey puc apparently hit a person in the heart in 2005. This is the only source put forward by the martial arts world I am aware of. It was referenced in another "scientific" martial arts series - a much better one I hasten to add - called "Human Weapon". This proves possibility in my books, but does register high on the probability scale.

As for "no touch KOs" in order to properly swallow this you have to buy into the argument that the laws of physics are wrong before you begin.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:21 pm

Excellent responses lads Smile

Jamie,

I am aware you are writing a book on this very subject, 'scepticism within matial arts'.

Be sure to let us know when it's released Wink

Cheers,

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:39 pm

Thanks, Den. It is an ongoing labour of love that has gone through many incarnations. At present it looks like to might emerge as a collection of new articles/essays on the subject. It is my tribute to the real shakers in the martial arts world as well as a personal reflection on the whole subculture we work/train/live in.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:27 am

Interesting and ongoing debate as always.
Like Has already been stated, whether it does or not does work is neither here nor there in the beginning as its being able to do this under pressure.

I have looked into this in depth, and have studied some on it, but its by no means a means to an end. it is as Russell Stutely says the last 5% of your techniques. this will come after body positioning, correct form, technique, working all of the above under pressure.

As Jamie has pointed out the basics of it are just weak areas of the body. All this stuff about strike for example sp6 which is spleen 6 on the shin at a certain time of the day is pure BS. fact is if you hit someone in a tender spot at any time of the day its gonna do damage providing it is hit right and with enough force.

I have had some good results and some not so good. by training them. one of which on my training partner we spent about 20 minutes at the end of a session testing some out. he was in a little bit of pain to say the least which is all well and good. however the next day had a major headache, the day following that headache and naseaus and then 3 days later in total passed out at his desk. now firstly I had put this down to him being ill and not telling me before training or a viral infection. but he was due to go abroad about a week after our training session and had only just had a check up that day or the eve previous if I remember. but he complained of a dizzy light headed feeling, wanting to throw up. feeling very week and all of a sudden just passing out at his desk.

This was indeed delayed. his doctor reported that he had a gradual drop in blood pressure and showed symptoms of dehydration which is weird as he had been drinking his regular amount of fluids.

Fact is, points DO work, just not in the way they are always portrayed to. its the same as everything else, find the information, have it tested on you or by you and see for your self. obviously with Dim Mak then not a lot you can do about testing it lol. however you only have to feel some of the other ones to find out. my own son has KO'd me with a very innocuous blow and also hit me on certain places on my arms where I have felt sick for hours later that day.

Like I said, its controversial, lots of cowboys around. but we all know we can strike places where it does internal damage, but doing it with light touches? hmmmm who knows. NO touch knockouts, yea well we dont even need to cover that now do we.

I know what I have felt, what I have used and experienced, and mostly what I believe but its a long road.

Train Hard, train smart, and BE REAL. let the actors do the showman ship.

Craig
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:55 pm

Interesting report, Craig. I wonder if the intensity of your training might have been a factor. I wound be interested in reading how exactly you set out your test - conditions etc.

I do feel that the world of MMA is a good measure for PP though. Even if fighters were not training in delivering PPs surely they would deliver them by accident. And I don't believe in all that BS about them being banned. That is an outright lie, plain and simple.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:41 pm

Hey Jamie I agree mate

Well I was wondering about the intensity also, but it was just trial and error,
hitting different places in sequence, and not in a combat scenario, just seeing if anything was happening and if the pain levels went up etc.

we didnt break a sweat, we were not grappling, boxing, or anything else, just picking points which were supposed to be linked ( like in the elemental charts ) Fire, Metal, Wood, Earth, Water etc.

and with light hits, literally about 5% power no more, and after a while he started to get these effects. We have been very careful about it since, as safety of your training partner is paramount as we know. but I have also experienced the same, just not to the degtree my friend did.

I had a headache and serious nausea for about 30 minutes after one training session, just drilling points and nothing more. so the jury is out on this one. One or two experiences you can start to wonder. but any more than that and id put some stock in the fact something was going on that we do not necessarily know about in the body.

Onto your point mate about PP being banned.

I agree boxers hit pressure points all the time in boxing, its hard not to with a 16oz glove strapped to your hand which is almost the size of someones face. You are certain to hit a Pressure Point or indeed several. there are a number of them along the jaw bone on its own, not to mention temples, forehead, all down the body and the idea of having to be seriously accurate with them is all BS as well, because most of the time where ever you hit, the size of your fist or open palm you are bound to hit one or more.

So they cant ban them as you will surely be hitting them by accident.

Also means there would be no KO's in any contact sport we watch.

Craig
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:13 pm

The "5%" is very Russell! It is the percentage he always quotes whether it is about delivery of force or the hierarchy of PPs, "last 5%". Of course, it is pretty difficult to accurately guage that percentage, but if we imagine that 100% is unresticted force like what you unload into a focus pad from a line-up on one of Geoff's Masterclasses and 0% is a touch then 5% is probably around the average force a light contact fighter might exert when he hits a target. From what I have seen and experienced of PP training the force is almost certainly more than 5%. 5% doesn't really hurt unless you are travelling into it. It is little more than a tap. Russell does tend to belt those pressure points and his "5%" should be taken in the same vein as his "this won't hurt" catchphrase ;-) See my article on him for more on that one!

Glad you keep an open mind to all this, Craig. Have you tried hitting the same pressure points in the wrong order?
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:35 pm

Hey jamie

Thanks for the reply on this,
I agree totally mate, I am a pragmatic martial artist and self defence guy first and always have been. I know what works for me and is usually a pressure point called Jaw 1 lol hit once, hit hard and if done right then job done Very Happy

I have not trained with Russell but have seen his dvds and read his information and spoken to him via e-mail etc. not had the pleasure in person but would like to see what 5% really is. I notice you had him on your Anatomy of hand strikes dvd. Have you trained with him at all? or tried any of this for your self?

I have hit the points in the wrong order but very briefly. and apparently according to my training partner it was a different feeling altogether, almost like the pain was building up and staying in place. almost the same as if you imagine a stream running down river to a waterfall, but then someone has blocked the waterfall off the water still has to go somewhere and tends to overflow the banks. the effects lasted longer and were more localised. I am by no means an expert on this but for me it is more of a hobby and passtime, as at the moment I dont think it would be beneficial for me to state categorically that they work in different based scenarios. but have had some success with shots to the body and lighter shots than normal to the head in training to stagger an opponent. so who knows.

We have to keep an open mind mate, its not something that should be played around with as we are playing with peoples bodies and training is serious. and in no way would I wish to harm my training partner or any other person just for the sake of trying to learn something which is controversial at best. trial and error is the way to go. if it works, so be it if not. ill keep using my right cross and training the way I do.

Nice post Jamie.

Craig

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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:42 pm

When I was sparring a few weeks ago I could hit with a reasonably light knee to the back of my head, just behind my ear. The strike wasn't that hard and it wasn't very painful but whatever spot it hit my legs went from under me. It was a very strange experience.
I have little doubt that the vast majority of pressure point stuff that's out there is nonsense but there may be something to some of it.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:56 pm

Quote :
When I was sparring a few weeks ago I could hit with a reasonably light knee to the back of my head, just behind my ear. The strike wasn't that hard and it wasn't very painful but whatever spot it hit my legs went from under me. It was a very strange experience.
I have little doubt that the vast majority of pressure point stuff that's out there is nonsense but there may be something to some of it.

I am not surprised! Have a look on an anatomical diagram and see exactly where you hit. You most probably whacked the carotid artery! That'll knock someone out for sure. Ask anyone who has been strangled.

Quote :
We have to keep an open mind mate, its not something that should be played around with as we are playing with peoples bodies and training is serious. and in no way would I wish to harm my training partner or any other person just for the sake of trying to learn something which is controversial at best. trial and error is the way to go. if it works, so be it if not. ill keep using my right cross and training the way I do.

Don't fear it, Craig. That's where the mystical arguments come in. Bottom line is that crosses, hooks, chokes and strangles are DEADLY moves we practice all the time and have countless case studies in sport and on the street to prove their validity. The same cannot be said for esoteric PPs.

I get on fine with Russell. I was even given an assistant coaching award from him in OCM after a couple of seminars.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:03 pm

Quote :
I am not surprised! Have a look on an anatomical diagram and see exactly where you hit. You most probably whacked the carotid artery! That'll knock someone out for sure. Ask anyone who has been strangled.
I wasn't knocked out, I just lost the use of my legs for a few seconds, which is why I found it weird.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:38 pm

I still cant use that link thingy properly,

someone tell me how and put me outta my misery please Very Happy

regards,

Den.

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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:22 pm

Way to go Jamie

I have not had the pleasure of training with Russ,
Seems like a nice guy just a shame he is not in the uk anymore.

Tim

I think I know the spot you are talking about, but I shall refrain from posting pressure point names on here for obvious reasons. there are multitude around that area as I have already said, but a freak occurence like that makes you wonder what the hell happened. but believe me it does happen.

Jamie

How much pressure point training have you done? or have you just done some of the OCFM seminars? did you cover waveforms and pressure points or just power generation and grappling etc? and more importantly did you find you can incorporate it into what you do with club chimera? and have you had any benefits from it?

IE, does it do all it says it does on the tin with all the promotion of the dvds etc?

Regards as always
Craig
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:25 pm

Quote :
I wasn't knocked out, I just lost the use of my legs for a few seconds, which is why I found it weird.

Not nice perhaps, a little disorientating, but hardly weird. Feeling weak at the knees is common when you receive trauma to the carotid artery. You are stifling blood flow after all. It is something I have experienced and so have many others when one gets slapped in the side of the neck or around that region.

My PP experience: Most of the traditional martial arts clubs I studied had a certain PP element. Song Shan Shaolin got more and more into it as time went on and Dentokan (Hako Ryu) Ju Jutsu used them a fair bit with their grips. Then there was the stuff Russell did and odds and sods elsewhere. My views are pretty much expressed at the beginning of the thread. PPs, as discussed in conventional First Aid, are just vulnerable areas of the body in line with what we know about anatomy. Touch Knock outs only seem to work on compliant training partners or where the power of suggestion is a very probable factor. I have not experienced or seen sufficeint evidence to back up the concept of combinations of PPs actually working for the esoteric reasons given nor their validity in a pressure-tested environment.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:16 pm

Quote :
Touch Knock outs only seem to work on compliant training partners or where the power of suggestion is a very probable factor. I have not experienced or seen sufficeint evidence to back up the concept of combinations of PPs actually working for the esoteric reasons given nor their validity in a pressure-tested environment.
What I find interesting about these touch or even no-touch KOs is that they genuinely do seem to ‘work’ on people who want them to work. In many cases at least there seems to be a genuine reaction, the people aren’t just faking. Of course they same isn’t replicated in non-believers so I guess it just goes to show the power the subconscious can have over people.
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PostSubject: Re: DIM MAK   Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:33 pm

Nice call Tim

I think if a person studies in an art for a long time there is a genuine belief that the techniques being taught are going to work. Conditioning mentally is another thing entirely. If someone is prone to having the techniques done on them a lot in class for instance then by shear repetition alone there can be a perceived response to the stimuli, the same as using NLP, it can be a visual trigger, audio or kinesthetic. so that once the trigger has been fired be it by a certain motion by the instructor then the elicited response naturally kicks in.

The downside is if the student wants to use it or feels they can use it on a potential attacker.

A decent right cross is one thing. but affecting someones energy to create a no touch KO for self defence purposes is just asking for serious trouble indeeed.

Craig
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