Many people claim what they train is relevant for self defence. Others train specifically for self defence. Many (most) martial artists take these motivations are a given. My question is why?

Why spend time training for self defence? Is this logical? Is it rational?

It should first be noted that many claim that they train for self defence but often times this training can be completely unrealistic, other times it’s just a claim people make but don’t back up. They actual just train in their martial art and give very little thought to self defence, but they’ll still put it on their posters when advertising.

In this thread I’m not concerned with the above, but rather with people who actually do genuinely train for self defence. Very often this training can be complete nonsense, but not always so. But effective or otherwise, why do people do it? If a guy lives in a relatively safe suburb of some relatively safe city then the chances of him needing self defence skills are probably quite slim. Yet people like this can still spend hours and hours training their self defence skills? I wonder this honestly because they want to improve their SD skills, and if so why, or if there some other reason.

There would certainly be some circumstances where training for self protection could definitely be justified but I think for the vast majority of people this is not the case.

I wonder if people who do this are really being honest with themselves as to their motivations. You guys in poor physical conditions and there are training ‘for the street’. If they were really worried about self protection then they’d be eating less and exercising more.

Do people do it because they are insecure or have low self esteem? This to me would seem likely at least for some people. Doing self defence training might potentially build confidence and make them feel better about themselves.

Or do others simply enough training but feel they need some justification for doing it? It gives a supposed purpose to training, and isn’t just some hobbie or pastime (many martial artists hate to think of what they do as a hobbie!)

Maybe others like the feeling of empowerment they get from the training. Maybe it makes them feel tough etc.

Personally I don’t train for self defence, I’d have interest in doing so. I train in realistic combat sports so what I do does translate to real fighting if I ever need it but the only time I ever have was working security.
Others here I know do train with self protection in mind so I’d be interested in hearing some opinions.

Hey Tim,

Interesting thread...

I'll have a crack at it tomorrow.

Cheers,

R.

Hey Tim,

Good topic... You pretty much know where I stand on the subject form "boards" . But I'd like to cover the subject here a bit.

My personal motivation, was like many of the other kids was that, I always liked the idea of becoming a "Bruce Lee" and giving some back to the school bullies of course. At the time I definitely had some self-esteem issues (I was around 13). Unfortunately, doing Wado did not help much.... Um, come to think of it, nor did Shotokan, Kenpo, Ninjitsu, or Kung Fu. I now train because I love it and can't imagine myself ever not training. I also love teaching, and all credit here goes to Lee Morrison who has completely helped, and inspired me. I now would like to pass on the knowledge that I was given, to others - so it may help them out of a jam (although, hopefully they will never have to use it).

The problem with trying to debate the issue of self-defense vs. sport is almost impossible. There's a few reasons for this. Combat Sport guys simply dismiss SD (and self-protection which is often lumped together) because they really don't posses that much knowledge about it, or have a complete misconception of how, and what it actually is. Mostly, they have seen crap clips on the net, or have heard dubious stories about particularly bad SD courses. However, to be fair there are a lot of really bad guys out there - who literally pass themselves off as SD gurus (you know the type - become a ninja over the weekend it will only cost you 300 yo yo's, etc.). Another problem is that not all self-defense is created equally... The same can also be said for MMA. Have you seen a certain Irish MMA course recently, that is running over a week costing a fair whack of cash? Even though the instructors have NO EXPERIENCE in MMA! (just money grabbing bull shit). To me anyway self-defense and self-protection are totally different entities. The simple explanation is, that "SD" is reactive (when it's nearly too late) and SP is pro-active (by you talking the initiative).

Unfortunately SD sells and lot these days, and the guys from traditional Martial Arts know this, and have started there own systems of "Self-Defense". However, it tends to be traditional arts, that wont really work under duress anyway, and that have now been "amped" up to "look more credible" for the streets. These are the clips you often see on the web, students falling to pieces with the slightest strike. Again, it will work really well in the Dojo, against a "friendly" opponent. They also often lumber the new student with a plethora of "specific defenses", that wont work in a real situation, but the student now feels he/she is safer. And good SP practitioner knows that these type of defenses will not work(but they have to keep the classes interesting, right).

So you're dead right to point out that lot of the SD stuff is total BS.

One thing I would also like to say against the general SD practitioners, is that they often say. "Well the ring is not the street and there is no rules". While I agree with the basic premise - I dislike the way the only pay "lip service" to the concept. I feel that some guys simply they don't quite "get it". They simply assume if you "bite", "gouge", etc. That's the job done! Personally, I don't see it as ever being that simple or easy unfortunately. This type of thinking is naive, and can lead to a "rude awakening" when an opponent merely stutters for a sec after a dreaded eye poke (assuming you even land it). The techniques definitely have a place, but more for making space, so you can go back to you "main artillery" which in my opinion should always be impact to the head (hit and hold as Lee would say).

The ring is a very different animal than the street.... again, a lot of guys into sports don't have the experience to find this out. If you look at most of the self-protection guys (the good ones anyway) they virtually all have years in sport backgrounds. However, they have also been in hundreds of real situations, and they all the say the same thing. The street is a place that you never want to be. Even myself, with only 3 years on the door, and in a pretty cushy club to be fair. I found it out in the first couple of months that my traditional training had to change.

In the ring you definitely learn some very valuable skills, there is no doubt about this. But it's all based on "consenting initiative", and a reciprocal exchange of blows. If you look at any CCTV footage that's not the way fights begin or end. And that's even before we begin talking about knives and multiple opponents. There is no bobbing and weaving, or sparring range. Ring craft is not specifically designed for street fighting therefore it's not optimum to train in it if you purely want street survival. If you look at Geoff Thompson's "Animal Day training, as one example. Which is full contact, and has been set up much like it would be on the street (well as much as one can). If you want to get ever closer, which is not for everyone I might add, you could always do "Combat Milling". Which is probably the closest thing to a street fight in a controlled environment.

The other misconception that people often has about SD is that they don't train very hard. Now again, some guys don't. As Geoff Thompson once said, that if you don't train hard don't expect your defensive tactics to work (I'm paraphrasing a bit here). If you look at the way the Combatives guys train (or should train) they implement a very tough training regime. Just look at some of those ATP and Tabata drills! In fact a lot of it has been nicked from MMA. You can't simply hope for the best if you are not fit. There are far too many things that could go wrong. If it goes to the ground (it will be elongated), your you have to face multiples. Or you may even have to run away form a few lads afterwords.

Sport guys also assume because they are in the ring going at it full contact (or aliveness training) it will be enough when the time comes. The problem I see is that a lot of the Combat Sport guys, who criticize SD have not been in that many real life altercations. Not all of them of course - look at Dave Gordon on boards he's been in 300 scraps (so he says). It really doesn't matter how good you are if you don't see an attack coming - you are always going to be on the back foot, while trying to recover.

Does the average person need self-defense? Well, some would argue, "that it's better to have it, and not need it, as opposed to needing it and not having it". But I do take the point that if the average Joe keeps his wits about him, and stays out of bad pubs etc, he will be able to nearly avoid all trouble. The one flaw with that is, that the criminals don't always follow "the rules", and will go to wherever the easy targets are. In the same way that they will carry a weapon or use deception - it will give them a higher probability of success.

People seem to want to train for various reasons, some people have definitely been effected by the media, which in Ireland tends to blow things out of proportion, especially when it comes to violence. However, in the UK things seem to be a fair bit worse. A few of the guys that came to me originally, came down because they were getting into scraps, because they lived in a bad part of Kildare. So they felt there was a necessity to learn these skills. I remember a few people on boards often saying that people should just avoid bad areas. It's not so easy if you live in one. A fair number of those people that often raise that issue are quite well off, and don't know what it's like to live in a shit hole. One other reason that people want to train is the fact that they have had a bad experience and would like to be able to prevent it happening again.

Some people wanted a quick fix or a "silver bullet". I remember one guy asked me recently how many weeks of training it would take him to be able to defend himself. I said that's something you can't really quantify, and there are no guarantees. Plus, it would take a lot longer than weeks! Needless to say he didn't really want to hear that (ie the truth!) and never came down. He probably went off on some weekend course, and now he's been told by a "guru" that he's snug as a bug in a rug.

There is definitely a confidence issue with certain people tho'. Some people feel that if they start learning this stuff they feel better about themselves. Nothing wrong with that in my book (as long as you understand it's limitations). Also, a lot of people do it as a hobby and seem to enjoy the training.

Different strokes for different folks you could say. Personally, I cannot fathom why people love combat sports. Getting into a ring and rolling about the floor... I never liked it (when I did it), I don't like watching it wither. but that's just me! (that said, I do like watching the odd boxing or Muai Thai match!)

Looking forward to other opinions.

Here's a few factors that should be addressed in your training, in my opinion, that are often over looked in a sporting gym. I know you've seen these before Tim - just thought they were relevant to the topic.

1) Does the Gym or system, have an active strategy showing the student, not only how to avoid and escape a potential attack, but how to read the signs before everything kicks off?

2) Does the gym have strategies to deal with multiple opponents? If so, how often are these practiced? especially if it's a combat sport which tends to focus on one opponent in a ring.

3) Does the gym have strategies to deal with armed opponents? How often blah blah blah...

4) Does the gym understand the difference between "ring craft" and street
violence. And if so, how often do they practice the latter mode (and how do they make the distinction between the two).

5) Can the gym explain what happens to the brain under duress, and how it's thought processes are impeded? (fight or flight, adrenal response, fear, etc.)

6) Does the gym explain the "modus operandi" of the modern attacker, and what type ruses or deceptions they employ.

7) Does the gym practice for fighting under the worst possible conditions, and in different environments (lifts, cars,corridors).

8 ) Does the gym use a set of "Hard skills" that have a high probability of success. Do these these skills have the versatility be used effectively under duress, in all situations?

9) Does the gym practice realistic street scenarios? or do they just practice ring craft?

10) Does the gym/system have an effective strategy for dealing with an ambush type of attack (from a mugging, to an attempted abduction).

11) Does the system hold up under pressure, when it's tested with full contact?

12) Does the gym have a program specifically geared towards women?

13) What is the gyms primary focus? - Is it winning competitions or just self-defense? If it's main focus is on winning competitions, then it stands to reason that they will spend very little or no time on SD, or vice versa.

15) Does the gym understand that "Action beats reaction" at close range?

My motivation when I followed MA was that throughout my life I was bullied mercilessly! Im toughened up mentally now but still feel fears now and again. However overall im loving life,

regards,

Den.

Nice long post there Rob

As you point out, a lot of what’s out there is complete BS. I don’t know how you train but for the sake of the discussion, the motivation behind the training, then I’ll take it for granted that what you do is quiet realistic and not the type of BS that one normally sees.

Quote:

I now train because I love it and can't imagine myself ever not training.

OK, so your base motivation for training is not self protection?

Quote:

The problem with trying to debate the issue of self-defense vs. sport is almost impossible.

That is not what I am trying to debate here.

Quote:

There's a few reasons for this. Combat Sport guys simply dismiss SD (and self-protection which is often lumped together) because they really don't posses that much knowledge about it, or have a complete misconception of how, and what it actually is. Mostly, they have seen crap clips on the net, or have heard dubious stories about particularly bad SD courses. However, to be fair there are a lot of really bad guys out there - who literally pass themselves off as SD gurus (you know the type - become a ninja over the weekend it will only cost you 300 yo yo's, etc.). Another problem is that not all self-defense is created equally... The same can also be said for MMA. Have you seen a certain Irish MMA course recently, that is running over a week costing a fair whack of cash? Even though the instructors have NO EXPERIENCE in MMA! (just money grabbing bull shit). To me anyway self-defense and self-protection are totally different entities. The simple explanation is, that "SD" is reactive (when it's nearly too late) and SP is pro-active (by you talking the initiative). Unfortunately SD sells and lot these days, and the guys from traditional Martial Arts know this, and have started there own systems of "Self-Defense". However, it tends to be traditional arts, that wont really work under duress anyway, and that have now been "amped" up to "look more credible" for the streets. These are the clips you often see on the web, students falling to pieces with the slightest strike. Again, it will work really well in the Dojo, against a "friendly" opponent. They also often lumber the new student with a plethora of "specific defenses", that wont work in a real situation, but the student now feels he/she is safer. And good SP practitioner knows that these type of defenses will not work(but they have to keep the classes interesting, right). So you're dead right to point out that lot of the SD stuff is total BS. One thing I would also like to say against the general SD practitioners, is that they often say. "Well the ring is not the street and there is no rules". While I agree with the basic premise - I dislike the way the only pay "lip service" to the concept. I feel that some guys simply they don't quite "get it". They simply assume if you "bite", "gouge", etc. That's the job done! Personally, I don't see it as ever being that simple or easy unfortunately. This type of thinking is naive, and can lead to a "rude awakening" when an opponent merely stutters for a sec after a dreaded eye poke (assuming you even land it). The techniques definitely have a place, but more for making space, so you can go back to you "main artillery" which in my opinion should always be impact to the head (hit and hold as Lee would say). The ring is a very different animal than the street.... again, a lot of guys into sports don't have the experience to find this out. If you look at most of the self-protection guys (the good ones anyway) they virtually all have years in sport backgrounds. However, they have also been in hundreds of real situations, and they all the say the same thing. The street is a place that you never want to be. Even myself, with only 3 years on the door, and in a pretty cushy club to be fair. I found it out in the first couple of months that my traditional training had to change. In the ring you definitely learn some very valuable skills, there is no doubt about this. But it's all based on "consenting initiative", and a reciprocal exchange of blows. If you look at any CCTV footage that's not the way fights begin or end. And that's even before we begin talking about knives and multiple opponents. There is no bobbing and weaving, or sparring range. Ring craft is not specifically designed for street fighting therefore it's not optimum to train in it if you purely want street survival. If you look at Geoff Thompson's "Animal Day training, as one example. Which is full contact, and has been set up much like it would be on the street (well as much as one can). If you want to get ever closer, which is not for everyone I might add, you could always do "Combat Milling". Which is probably the closest thing to a street fight in a controlled environment

This is probably all true, but again not what I was trying to debate.

Quote:

Does the average person need self-defense?

Now we are getting on track…

Quote:

Well, some would argue, "that it's better to have it, and not need it, as opposed to needing it and not having it".

That argument doesn’t stand up to any kind of scrutiny I’m afraid. If you could learn SP over a weekend course, or even I week long course I would say fair enough, better to have it than not. Or the same could be said for somebody carrying around some mace or something like that. It’s a different thing altogether trying to apply it to a person going training a few times a week every week. Sure it is still better to have it than not but can spending a few hours several times a week really be justified for the risk involved? Would somebody interested in self protection not be better off spending the same time every doing some course of how to avoid car accidents? A lot more people die every year from road accidents than do from violent attacks.

Quote:

I remember a few people on boards often saying that people should just avoid bad areas. It's not so easy if you live in one. A fair number of those people that often raise that issue are quite well off, and don't know what it's like to live in a shit hole

There is an element of truth in this alright IMO, but if for example a person is genuinely in real danger of (say) a knife attack then something more radical needs to change in their life than doing a knife defence course.

Quote:

1) Does the Gym or system, have an active strategy showing the student, not only how to avoid and escape a potential attack, but how to read the signs before everything kicks off? 2) Does the gym have strategies to deal with multiple opponents? If so, how often are these practiced? especially if it's a combat sport which tends to focus on one opponent in a ring. 3) Does the gym have strategies to deal with armed opponents? How often blah blah blah... 4) Does the gym understand the difference between "ring craft" and street violence. And if so, how often do they practice the latter mode (and how do they make the distinction between the two). 5) Can the gym explain what happens to the brain under duress, and how it's thought processes are impeded? (fight or flight, adrenal response, fear, etc.) 6) Does the gym explain the "modus operandi" of the modern attacker, and what type ruses or deceptions they employ. 7) Does the gym practice for fighting under the worst possible conditions, and in different environments (lifts, cars,corridors). 8 ) Does the gym use a set of "Hard skills" that have a high probability of success. Do these these skills have the versatility be used effectively under duress, in all situations? 9) Does the gym practice realistic street scenarios? or do they just practice ring craft? 10) Does the gym/system have an effective strategy for dealing with an ambush type of attack (from a mugging, to an attempted abduction). 11) Does the system hold up under pressure, when it's tested with full contact? 12) Does the gym have a program specifically geared towards women? 13) What is the gyms primary focus? - Is it winning competitions or just self-defense? If it's main focus is on winning competitions, then it stands to reason that they will spend very little or no time on SD, or vice versa. 15) Does the gym understand that "Action beats reaction" at close range?

Genuine question:
Why should these be addressed in my training? This is what I was asking in my original post. Why would I as a regular guy living in Galway want to train to defend myself against a knife wielding bad guy in a lift? What would be my motivation for doing this because as sure as hell it couldn't be justified in terms of the probability of it every happening to me. In terms of self protection I would be much better off on a course about car accident prevention.

Great stuff, guys! This is what martial arts scepticism is all about and the sort of issues we should be discussing. I see the debate Tim and Rob are having to be similar to the debates scientists have over the minor details of evolution, which are often mistaken by "believers" to be proof that Darwin's theory is not supported by scientists.

I teach self-defence as the base and root of my class syllabus, but also have a very heavy emphasis on MMA methods for what we call "attribute training". I am most probably more in Rob's camps by definition, but nevertheless I can't help but have a lot of sympathy for a lot of SBG's ideas.

I understand the SBG's stance on this and, to be honest, there is a good deal I agree about their approach. Karl is a great guy who very kindly agreed for me to interview him for my book. He made some valid points at the course he happened to be taking at the time, which are pretty much in line with Tim's view.

I don't know whether I will be to address this debate properly here, but I will definitely be looking at it as objectively as possible in my "Bullshitsu" book ;-) Keep debating guys, it gives me more material and I can justify my presence here as being work-related

To Qoute Jamie on another thread:

attitude is, above all, the key skill in self-defence training!

This is to me why people study self defence.

I didnt do MA or self defence for belts/medals/certificates. I had zero self confidence and was scared to leave the house.

For me it was psychological, I can rationalise im more likel;y to e killed byu a car, but that does not reduce your fears of attack when you were bullied most your life.

I work from home now because its easier then facing down work bullies all the time.

I can handle it but still lack a little confidence.

No doubt regular attendance of combatives would help me psychologically as well as physically.

Kids are being put in karate classes to defend themselves from school bullies, my pref for my kids will be judo or ju jitsu.

The media has created fear and the school system are not combatting bullies!

What else can we do?

Regards,

Den.

Good post Tim...some interesting points. I'm working at the moment - so I'll have a crack later. Damn work gets in the way of my Skepticism!

Sorry, I should just say that I wasn't trying to debate you per se. Just having an interesting discussion!

Rob! Time you learned to multitask, im working, sceptic posting and listening to science podcasts, and in my haste deleted a half hour health podcast by mistake

Regards,

Den.

Hi tim,
to reply to the 3 points:

1. Its not rational, its fear! Big difference.

2. For me MA training has helped. I cannot say it helps everyone but...

3. Teaching my children does not promote violence, it promotes self confidence. They are raised with manners, respect, courtesy and disiplined with naughty step et al, never violence!

Its all in the nurture, studying child psychology at uni has helped me in this respect. I believe just because a child can effectively defend themselves does not mean violence.


I suggest you read neil adams bio, he defended himself with judo against a bully, he did not become a bully, he did not use excess force and he ained respect.

Due to lack of an alternate method other than allowing my children to potentially be bullied to suicide as so many have, Im being pre emptive!

Maybe not statistically rational but hand on heart are you going to tell your kids not to defend themselves and allow the crap kicked out of them every day?

Maybe thats ok with you, but I love my kids and no one is going touse them as a punchbag, even if that doesnt sit well with some peoples skewed sense of morality.

Regards,

Den.