What’s the motivation?

Jamie Clubb · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:10 pm

Quote:

I'm not quite sure I follow you.

That's the idea isn't it? No followers Very Happy

What don't you understand?

undercover sceptic · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:50 pm

Rob,

when you mentioned Tony Robbins,

you weren't referring to banana hands master nlp, motivational speaker, tony robbins were you? Shocked

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE

tim · Member Number of posts: 70 Registration date: 2008-08-07

Quote:

On the subject of Limerick... I've a few mates who studied there. They would not agree with your view point. The scummers used to hunt and kick the shit out of the "art students". I had a mate who was bottled because he had long hair, and a leather jacket. Of course they go for the easy targets.

I actually taught TKD in the arts college for a bit. I’m not saying that Limerick wasn’t without it’s share of scumbags.

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As for people getting beaten up after a few jars, and could they have avoided it? Perhaps... But do we live our live tip toeing around the scumbags?

Not at all. I was saying that a lot of fights in pubs are both people’s fault to a greater or lesser degree. There are exceptions no doubt. I’ve talked to my mate I mentioned above afterwards about why he was fighting and it was always the other guys fault, he didn’t know why it started etc etc. Yet at the same time it used to always end up happening to him and never to me. And I didn’t spend my nights out tip toeing!

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So naturally the MMA types, who train in full contact, sneer at these bad clips and instructors. Unfortunately they lump everything into the same bag... without knowing anything about the good material. Which is the part that I don't agree with and think is unfair.

Sure, it is unfair. The problem is people can only keep up a healthy scepticism for so long before becoming cynical. I used to post on a TKD forum a lot a few years ago and every now and again I’d come across somebody who’d insist that what he was doing was different to what I was criticising and blah blah blah. More often than not if they ever posted a video then it turned out that they were doing more or less the same crap, just dressed up a bit different.

tim · Member Number of posts: 70 Registration date: 2008-08-07

Jamie Clubb wrote:

Quote:

I'm not quite sure I follow you.

That's the idea isn't it? No followers Very Happy

What don't you understand?

What you mean by:

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we end up buying into the "by-product myth" and end up doing what White Suit Inc. and the mystics do. As such MMA becomes an absolute in itself.

Rob · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:30 pm

British Sceptic wrote:

when you mentioned Tony Robbins,

you weren't referring to banana hands master nlp, motivational speaker, tony robbins were you? Shocked

Den.

JESUS!!! where did I get that name from?????? affraid

SO sorry.... I meant Anthony Sommers.... Geoff's mate and instructor. Not that other idiot!

Can't believe I said that. Embarassed

As well as being dislexic - I'm totally absent minded. Prolly BSE.....

_________________
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." - Marcello Truzzi

Craig · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:09 pm

Lmfao

Thats only a small mistake Rob, lol
Tony is an ace guy and a fantastic self defence instructor also.
I know he has been doing more and more work over in ireland with aiden carrol etc.

Reminds me, I must give tony a call,
thanks for the reminder lol.

cheers

Jamie Clubb · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:46 pm

Tim,

It will be in my book ;-) Suffice to say how long before the actual specific self-defence courses disappear from the MMA classes (STAB programme for example) that still advertise self defence? How long before those who still argue that they do teach self defence come back with the old McDojo chestnut "we teach confidence and that's what self-defence is all about"?

Rob,

When I taught my seminar in Ireland I was actually very impressed with the attitude taken by the students. Unlike most seminars I didn't have to spend ages going on about pre-emptive striking or what the fence was or worry about people being scared to spar. You have a fantastic lead in with Aidan Caroll. He has exactly the right idea.

Rob · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:11 pm

Hey Jamie,

Yeah, Aiden's lads will be pretty clued up, as he's been training with a few of the big names (including Lee).

Unfortunately, the average groups aren't so aware of the whole self-protection gamut, and all that it entails.

R.

_________________
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." - Marcello Truzzi

tim · Member Number of posts: 70 Registration date: 2008-08-07

Quote:

Suffice to say how long before the actual specific self-defence courses disappear from the MMA classes (STAB programme for example) that still advertise self defence?

In fairness, i can't think of any mma club I've trained in that advertised what they were doing as self defence. If somebody asked me about the places I train so I would say it is self defence relevent, which it is because people learn how to fight, but the training itself is not aimed at self defence. A guy being fitter, tougher and having some fighting ability are all things that might help him on the dreaded street, but at the end of the day its not what the training is about. There are much healthier reasons to train as most people discover than fear or because he were bullied as a kid.

undercover sceptic · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:08 pm

Tim,

could you elaborate on the health reasons please?

Regards,

den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE

Jamie Clubb · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:15 pm

Quote:

In fairness, i can't think of any mma club I've trained in that advertised what they were doing as self defence. If somebody asked me about the places I train so I would say it is self defence relevent, which it is because people learn how to fight, but the training itself is not aimed at self defence. A guy being fitter, tougher and having some fighting ability are all things that might help him on the dreaded street, but at the end of the day its not what the training is about. There are much healthier reasons to train as most people discover than fear or because he were bullied as a kid.

In an online survey NEST, one of the UK's biggest martial arts billing companies, the biggest percentage of students said that the reason why they fist decided to train martial arts was for self-defence. With this in mind, many martial arts clubs are doing their customers a deservice by shifting the objective. Granted if they don't advertise self-defence on their agenda and they tell their students that what they teach isn't self-defence orientated from the beginning that is fine. However, I don't buy into this "by-product" myth. You can be fit and healthy from rugby and let's face facts rugby probably teaches more first line self-defence hard skills than even MMA. It teaches escape and resistance again multiple attackers.

A question for you Tim? Is there much debate among SBG members. I'd be interested to read how their views differ. After all, I would certainly consider SBG to be martial arts sceptics of a type.

Rob · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:23 pm

Jamie Clubb wrote:

Is there much debate among SBG members. I'd be interested to read how their views differ. After all, I would certainly consider SBG to be martial arts sceptics of a type.

In my opinion, SBG are pseudo skeptics.... this is because they tend look at only one "part of the picture", and simply dismiss the rest. Again, I'm not saying that they are all like this - but the guys that I have encountered on "Boards.ie" are very blinkered. And criticize and dismiss other training methodologies without knowing all the facts.

I often think that they feel that they are the only ones who practice against a "non-compliant" partners. However, the self-protection movement/Combatives have been doing this well before MMA was even in the public eye. And god knows how many years before that....

_________________
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." - Marcello Truzzi

tim · Member Number of posts: 70 Registration date: 2008-08-07

Quote:

In an online survey NEST, one of the UK's biggest martial arts billing companies, the biggest percentage of students said that the reason why they fist decided to train martial arts was for self-defence. With this in mind, many martial arts clubs are doing their customers a deservice by shifting the objective.

If a person starts training something for self defence but then continues to train for other reasons, how is this a disservice? I’m nearly sure I’ve never even talked to somebody who’s main motivation for continuing to train long term was SD. Even you guys, for all the talk about SD, its obvious it is not the main reason you train.

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However, I don't buy into this "by-product" myth.

What the “myth” that learning to fight might help you if you ever need to fight? I have used my skills in real encounters working security. I have never one any training but a few to working in security and have never done any security training of any kind. Yet all the ‘sport’ stuff came to my rescue and I had no problem at all transferring these skills to a non-sport environment.

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A question for you Tim? Is there much debate among SBG members. I'd be interested to read how their views differ. After all, I would certainly consider SBG to be martial arts sceptics of a type.

Much debate about self defence training I presume? I have no idea to be honest, I don’t train in a SBG gym, although I have trained with John Kavanagh a good few times, and I have spent some time training in Karl’s place. From from my limited experience in these places guys are more interested in just getting good at work they are doing, be that BJJ, boxing, wrestling etc. I would doubt that most of the people training in these gyms care one way or the other all that much about “self defence”, but that is just my opinion. But we are talking about large full time gyms, I'm sure there's probably plenty of different opinions on the matter.

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In my opinion, SBG are pseudo skeptics.... this is because they tend look at only one "part of the picture", and simply dismiss the rest. Again, I'm not saying that they are all like this - but the guys that I have encountered on "Boards.ie" are very blinkered.

Taking the opinions of a few posters and applying it to a large group of people is not the most logical thing to do.

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I often think that they feel that they are the only ones who practice against a "non-compliant" partners.

Some guys come across like that alright.

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However, the self-protection movement/Combatives have been doing this well before MMA was even in the public eye.

Indeed, a lot of people were, SBG included. There’s actually a fair bit of material of Matt’s early stuff about, MMA before the term existed.

tim · Member Number of posts: 70 Registration date: 2008-08-07

British Sceptic wrote:

Tim,

could you elaborate on the health reasons please?

Regards,

den.

A heatlhy reason to train might mean to want to get a bit fitter, or meet new people or just be doing something you enjoy doing in the evening. As opposed to unhealthy reasons, like being paranoid, being worried about getting attacked with a knife when the chances of that ever happening are tiny, or just going training because you'll get to spar and you want to hurt somebody.

In general I think people often don't give that much time to think about why they do what they do, what are the real reasons why they go training at all, hence this thread.

undercover sceptic · Subject: Re: What’s the motivation? Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:45 am

Thanks for the clarification Tim,

I am inclined to agree with you on those points,

Den.

_________________
Skepticism is the agent of reason against organized irrationalism - and is therefore one of the keys to human social and civic decency.
Stephen J Gould

MY BLOG PAGE